Module talk:cmn-pron

@kc_kennylau I have a question here. Would you happen to know why

{{#invoke:Pinyin-IPA|str_anal|Rìběn er=y tl=y}}

gives 'Module error'? Thanks. Wyang (talk) 00:38, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

I see what is going wrong. It's because of the equal signs. Wyang (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Could perhaps use preloading for Pinyin

Not sure if parameter values could be incorporated into preloaded text in that method though. Wyang (talk) 03:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Odd wording

I've corrected entries where the module error read:

Text contains the obstreperous hidden character: ""

First of all, obstreperous is an adjective used to describe people who are loud and whose behavior is out of control- perhaps you meant extraneous. Secondly, what's the point of presenting the character in quotes? If it's a hidden character, all you will ever see is a pair of empty quotes. Why not just say "an extraneous hidden character"? I apologize if I'm spoiling a private joke, but regular contributors may be exposed to this oddity, and they may have trouble understanding it. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:43, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

OK... Wyang (talk) 23:35, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

And most importantly, why make the module fail in the most spectacular way possible instead of shaving off the character and adding the page to a tracking category/linking to a tracking template? — Keφr 18:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

It is often an indication of careless editing (i.e. copying straight off some website on the internet). The pronunciation is better checked before it gets displayed. Wyang (talk) 23:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

[1]

@kc_kennylau Sequences like 'i̯i', 'u̯u' and 'y̯y' suggest that it is a sequence of two identical vowels, one of which is non-syllabic. It doesn't really make sense. We should either use a semivowel for the first component, or nothing, just a plain vowel for the syllable. Wyang (talk) 00:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Changed accordingly. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:27, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Module error - 不如

@Wyang At 不如: "Lua error in Module:cmn-pron at line 33: Pinyin contains the hidden character: ​ (U+200B). Please remove that character from the text." --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Title of 不如​​ contained that hidden character. I've merged it with the existing entry 不如. Wyang (talk) 01:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. zh-hanzi-box behaved strangely too, as if there was something else.--Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:52, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

恆星系

Lua error in Module:cmn-pron at line 222: Zhuyin conversion unsuccessful: "恆xing1". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:09, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. Wyang (talk) 00:17, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Audio

@kc_kennylau Any ideas on why the audio for cmn is behaving a bit weird in that it is upwardly displaced and covers the line above? Not sure if it happens on other systems, but it has been like this on mine (Chrome and IE, Macbook) for quite some time. Wyang (talk) 07:18, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

@Wyang: I thought this problem is beyond T:zh-pron. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:40, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

I've seen the same thing w/ latest Firefox+Windows. I remember investigating but I don't remember what I found (if I even found anything). —suzukaze (t・c) 12:08, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Same issue, Chrome on Windows and iOS, it covers the IPA for me. A little frustrating when I'm trying to learn pronunciations and audio would be annoying to those around me. —Aryamanarora ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 16:35, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

Tone sandhi of 一 and 不

Tone sandhi of 一 and 不 needs to occur even if spelled with a space, e.g. in 大人不記小人過／大人不记小人过 and 你拍一，我拍一，一隻小貓坐飛機／你拍一，我拍一，一只小猫坐飞机. @Wyang, Kc kennylau — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

ê

@Wyang, Kc kennylau: Module:cmn-pron is missing full support for the vowel ê (誒, 欸) (ê̄ ế ê̌ ề; FWIW ê1 and ê3 consist of ê + combining tone diacritic and are not one character). —suzukaze (t・c) 07:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Wade-Giles

What happened to this romaniasation? – AWESOME meeos ！ * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 08:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Template talk:zh-pron#Gwoyeu Romatzyh —suzukaze (t・c) 08:37, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh. I see. But I want it to be in multiple character entries. I agree with Justin Leung – AWESOME meeos ！ * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 08:48, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

嗯 and 唔

@Suzukaze-c, Wyang, any idea why ńg works at 嗯 but not at 唔? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:54, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

It seems like this made it work. —suzukaze (t・c) 06:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Gwoyeu Romatzyh

ng2 probably isn't right... —suzukaze (t・c) 06:43, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

@Fish bowl Nearly 7 years later, but I'm currently doing a total rewrite of Module:cmn-pron and will make sure to deal with the syllabic nasals. It took me a while to find some examples of this in use, since I wasn't sure if GR would use the regular tone pattern or the sonorant one, but there are a handful of uses right at the end of Gwoin Charngyonq Tzyhhuey which confirm it uses the regular pattern (e.g. m, mr, mm, mh, .m). Theknightwho (talk) 12:40, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

柏#Pronunciation

diff; cmn-pron is generating IPA for 2 out of 3 pronunciations. —suzukaze (t・c) 05:30, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

不屑, Gwoyeu Romatzyh

bu4shieh doesn't seem right. —suzukaze (t・c) 04:01, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

(Of course, it is bu4shieh... Wyang (talk) 05:32, 31 January 2018 (UTC))

Zhuyin neutral tone

Taiwan's Zhuyin guide says that the neutral tone is written before the syllable, unlike other tones. —suzukaze (t・c) 05:18, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Fixed — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:47, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Accel

As noted on WT:NFE, the format that is used for WT:ACCEL in this module, with a raw span tag, is deprecated. Someone who is familiar with this module should update it to the new format to avoid future breakage. —Rua (mew) 10:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

m with an acute accent

I tried to make this the pronunciation of 嘸, however it wouldn't let me. Fix? Johnny Shiz (talk) 20:00, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

@Johnny Shiz: Fixed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Wade-Giles

@Erutuon, Justinrleung: H. Could you also add Wade-Giles romanisation to the table (in the expanded mode), please, the way Tongyong Pinyin was added? Sorry, I may not be able to follow up on this but I will read any responses. Thanks in advance. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:16, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure if the modules are ready, especially for capitalisations. I know the conversion works OK for monosyllabic pinyin. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Pinyin -uǒ should become Gwoyeu Romatzyh -uoo

The converter appears to be treating -u- as the nucleic vowel instead of -o and doubling that, rendering words like 我 wǒ, 火 huǒ, and 果 guǒ as wuuo, huuo, and guuo instead of woo, huoo, and guoo.

The issue doesn’t appear to affect -uó and -uò, but these would be the same (-wo and -uoh, respectively) regardless of which vowel was nucleic; or other syllables with medial -u-, properly rendering words like 刎 wěn and 愴 chuǎng as woen and choang. Stars&Stuff553 (talk) 05:33, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

The issue also appears to affect -iě, rendering 也 yě and 且 qiě as yyie (this appears to have a second issue in converting i to y as yiie would be expected) and chiie instead of yee and chiee. Again, other syllables with medial -i- like 眼 yǎn and 血 xuě are rendered correctly. Stars&Stuff553 (talk) 05:52, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Zhuyin of syllabic nasals

I'm not a Zhuyin expert, but shouldn't pinyin 'n', 'm', and 'ng' be transcribed to Zhuyin as syllabic nasals 'ㄯ', 'ㆬ', and 'ㆭ' instead of initial consonants? I know that these characters are more appropriate, but I struggle to find if they are still in use today. [2] Here is an appearance of them, but the dictionary is from 1937, and Chinese Wikipedia (with the help of Google Translate) only says that they can be used as an alternative to ㄢ, ㄣ, ㄤ, ㄥ (for example, ㄥ is ㄜ+ㆭ) and that they are rarely used alone (but we have to know what to do with those "rare occasions"). Common sites where Zhuyin is listed, however, use the non-syllabic nasals. Is the correct way the one that is now, or is use of syllabic nasals some really advanced, rarely-used correct way of writing Zhuyin? Garygo golob (talk) 22:33, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

They are still used, at least Unicode says so…

Prevent using IPA ɑ and ɡ in Pinyin spelling

When writing Pinyin, there are people who use IPA ɑ (U+0251) and ɡ (U+0261) instead of ASCII a (U+0061) and g (U+0067).

Example: "Jīntiān de cài hěn là. Búɡuò, wǒ hěn xǐhuɑn." (source)

This module is already displaying an error message for using a breve, zero-width space (U+200B), or some other incorrect spellings. It would be good if this module also notifies a user that IPA ɑ and ɡ should not be used. --172.58.88.238 07:00, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Add support for ê and tones

I was trying to convert man to use {{zh-pron}}; mɛn should become mê̄n, I think, but the module does not support it. (Likewise for the ones listed in w:Pinyin#Unicode_code_points under rare, might need them in the future) -- Wpi31 (talk) 14:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Capitalisation of Palladius

@Theknightwho: Hi. Thanks for adding the Cyrillisation.

At 北京 (Běijīng), the altenative reading "Běijīngr" shows "бэйцзинр" but should be "Бэйцзинр". Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:55, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev Thanks. I vaguely remember this, as it's not limit to Palladius: none of the romanisations are capitalised either. I'll look into it. Theknightwho (talk) 23:57, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho:: Typically no capitalisation is required, especially if tone numbers are used (never tone marks) but it is sometimes stylised for readability. Here it would be appropriate for consistency. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:03, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev Agreed. What I meant was if you compared the two lists, all 5 romanisations + Palladius capitalise the main pronunciation, but only Hanyu pinyin capitalises the erhua one, so the issue is clearly further up the chain than the Palladius function. Theknightwho (talk) 00:07, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev On a related note, I meant to ask about the "romanisation" of the Palladius: it's currently set to use Module:ru-translit, but with all of the special features turned off (like -го (-go) and so on). Does that make sense? I think only about 3 pages were affected by that, so it's probably not a big deal. Theknightwho (talk) 00:14, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: I am not skilled in module development but converting -го to "-vo" should be avoided. I've checked 火鍋 / 火锅 (huǒguō), which gives romanises "хого" correctly as "xogo", otherwise, it would be "xovo": хого (xovo). @Benwing2 Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:38, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Otherwise, using Module:ru-translit for romanising Palladius makes sense.

I don't know how it handles a case like huǒguō -> хого -> xogo but it seems to work. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:41, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Theknightwho It looks like this works as -go not -vo because the code specifically disables the -vo conversion (it's one of the flags to tr() in Module:ru-translit). Benwing2 (talk) 17:12, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev Resurrecting this re Palladius: I've been able to look at Большой китайско-русский словарь by И. М. Ошанин, which is apparently the gold standard of Chinese-Russian dictionaries, and was surprised to see it gives Palladius with tone markings. It follows the same system as pinyin, except that tone 5 is also marked with a ring:

ма̄, ма́, ма̌, ма̀, ма̊

If I have time, I'll probably add it. That last one doesn't display properly for me, but we already have that issue with ея̈ (jejǫ́) (etc.) anyway. Theknightwho (talk) 08:16, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Interesting. The copy I found uses standard Hanyu Pinyin to romanise Chinese. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:08, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev This is a screenshot I took from the 1984 edition:

Theknightwho (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Thanks. Are these used to describe tones in a table only or also in the body of the dictionary?

(I don't object you adding tone marks, it just seems there are more important things to do :) Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev This screenshot's from the body, which is the only place they're given - everywhere else uses pinyin and (annoyingly) there's no convenient table.

I've been meaning to completely restructure Module:cmn-pron which will involve rewriting all the romanisations, so I'll probably do it at that point; the new structure I've been planning should make it straightforward to convert between systens, so it shouldn't be any extra work to add.

Curiously, some of the interjections weren't quite what I was expecting: n is н (not нь), and ng is нг (not н). They definitely need to be changed, since they're wrong atm, but it's weird that they (especially нг) are inconsistent with the rest of the system.

Theknightwho (talk) 01:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Ours are good. E.g. 嗯 (ńg) shows Palladius: "н". Do you mean that dictionary? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:11, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev What I meant was that's wrong - БКРС gives "нг". "н" is actually "n". It's inconsistent, but it's also the only source I've found which actually gives these interjections in Palladius, given they're rare and never needed in names. Theknightwho (talk) 01:14, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: It's OK to fix them here. Those interjections were the last to be fixed at Wiktionary - Zhuyin, etc. They are normally absent from all conversion tables. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:16, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev Yeah, I'll do it when I add tones. "hng" is ambiguous: it just says "часто hng" as an alternative to hēng/хэ̄н, so it could be хн or хнг. My gut feeling is it's хнг, since нг seems to be for syllabic /ŋ̍/. Not a big deal, anyway. Theknightwho (talk) 01:24, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: "hng" should give "хн". Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I must have the same dictionary, only 1983. It uses Palladius at the beginning of character entries. The words are shown in pinyin. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Atitarev Yes, that's it. I'm still not sure with "hng" tbh - I think "нг" means it's a syllabic nasal or something, but Oshanin's been dead for 40 years so I can't exactly ask him. Theknightwho (talk) 02:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)