Talk:nigger killer

Your reverts

@DCDuring, I made that edit because the concerned Wikispecies & Wikipedia entries do not exist. You can just check it yourself. There's no need to link to blank pages, right? — inqilābī ^{[ inqilāb zindabād ]} 12:31, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

The principal use of the templates is to support the analysis of dump runs that count occurrences of vernacular names of organisms (enclosed in {{vern}}) and taxonomic names of organisms (enclosed in {{taxlink}}. Those occurring most frequently are added. Although the direct links often don't exist, some users, eg, me, will be able to use the no-entry page to find the pages of higher-level taxa or synonyms that include the taxon. Similarly for vernacular names. In the case of Wikipedia, it is easy enough to add a redirect, often to an entry for the taxonomic name or a higher ranking taxonomic name. The text of the no-entry page on Wikispecies reads "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page." [emphasis added]. In the case of Mastigoproctus giganteus, clicking on the search option turns up Mastigoproctus. DCDuring (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Deletion of the linking templates sets back the process of adding entries for these terms, as well as depriving users of a way to get more information from the sister projects. DCDuring (talk) 16:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

RFD discussion: September–October 2020

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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nigger killer

Why is nigger killer here? Sum of parts. Those "archaic terms" in the definition aren't fooling anyone. -- Dentonius (talk) 04:32, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• Keep. Only the first sense is SOP; the others aren't. The first sense can be replaced with {{&lit}} if necessary. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:54, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

You've already made a decision but I'd like to point out the following:

• The citations are weak: If it's recorded in writing that some yokel somewhere says that something kills Black people, it doesn't mean that that thing has that name.
• If someone said "Look, a N-word killer", what exactly are we talking about? Heck, any and everything could be an N-word killer.

When I wanted to add service station in Russian (станция техобслуживания), it was knocked down as sum of parts even though it's documented in printed dictionaries. Y'all have no problem keeping obscure racist sum of parts terms uttered by some racist in some backwater. Yet you're quick to throw out what's useful.

I see how this place works now.

-- Dentonius (talk) 07:07, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, станция техобслуживания has never been created, as it has no page history and no deletion log. If, like English service station, it refers to a place where you can not only get your car serviced but also simply buy gasoline, then I would say it isn't any more SOP than service station itself is. I wouldn't flag it for deletion. As for n***** killer, only the literal sense is SOP; it has other senses that are not SOP at all. If those senses are used (not merely mentioned) in print (or other durably archived media) by at least three different authors over a period of more than a year, then we simply have no reason to delete it. It must of course be labeled {{lb|en|offensive}}, but if those senses pass RFV they should be kept. We don't censor offensive words here, nor do we gather them all together in a single entry, as you requested elsewhere. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:22, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I added the word to the Russian requested entries page to test the waters. It was removed. I was addressed in an impolite manner and told that they don't want any "sum of parts" terms here. It's why I didn't bother to create the entry. To do so would have been to go against an administrator's view of things. As for what "we" do here. "We" can do anything we want here. Nothing is set in stone. What's really happening here is that a lot of people are quite comfortable with and enjoy promoting racism. That's just my opinion. -- Dentonius (talk) 11:29, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I see. Well, I don't know Russian, and Atitarev is a native speaker, but I would say that if Russian станция техобслуживания (stancija texobsluživanija) has the same range of meanings as English service station, then the former is no more SOP than the latter is. But if the scope of the Russian term is narrower than that of the English term, then maybe it is SOP. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

The requested entries pages have different de facto policies depending on the editors who monitor them. If you created the entry yourself a dispute would go to this forum where more editors might have opinions and a more uniform standard would be used. But I would defer to Russian speakers about whether a Russian phrase feels like a sum of parts. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:17, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• Replace the first sense with {{&lit}}; keep the others. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
• Delete speedily along with nigger killers, SOP. The things named in the defined terms aren't really the names of those things. Outside of fiction or fantasy where some person describes X as a nigger killer, this would not be widely understood anywhere else. The generally understood meaning in the English language is simply a person who or a thing which kills niggers. This is an SOP masquerading as some kind of term with multiple meanings which it is not. I posit that we can probably identify several other English texts where something is referred to as an "X killer." (e.g., a reputation killer, a marriage killer, etc.) Those things do not actually have the name "X killer." -- Dentonius (talk) 18:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
• Replace first sense with {{&lit}} as proposed by Metaknowledge. Ultimateria (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
• Replace first sense with {{&lit}}, as proposed by Metaknowledge. The rest should obviously be kept; just because something sounds offensive doesn't mean it's not a word. – Guitarmankev1 ^(talk) 12:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I would like my objection recorded to the thinking of the non-Black Wiktionarians who have commented here. My view is either we keep nigger killer (talk) and nigger cock (talk) or we delete both nigger killer (talk) and nigger cock (talk). To do otherwise, would be to demonstrate the hypocrisy of some non-Black Wiktionarians (who presently outnumber Black Wiktionarians by a large margin). Non-Black Wiktionarians love to claim that racist terms don't offend them (easy for them to say, actually). They also love to claim that Wiktionary is "all words in all languages." Prior to its deletion, nigger cock made reference to the word cuck (near-homonym with the word cock) which taps into the primordial fear of White men that their wives will be pleasured by a nigger cock unbeknownst to them. To help future readers to understand the community's decision regarding nigger cock, a screenshot with its citations and defined terms is hereby provided. This is my final comment on this topic. I await your decision but I'm not optimistic that you'll abide by your own standards (as has happened several times throughout history). -- Dentonius (talk) 05:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

You're assuming that these two entries are the same as far as SOP is concerned, and that the only difference is that one is negative toward black people and the other is positive. I think the more apt comparison is with cow killer: if this is SOP, than that is also. In fact, they're based on the same concept, with the racism having to do with equating human beings with expendable farm animals. Analogous to the sweet potato sense is enough to choke a horse, with the same blurring of the line between human beings and farm animals. Those senses aren't SOP because not everything that's big or painful enough that one could imagine them to be lethal can be referred to by the term.

The nigger cock entry, on the other hand, is more of a concept than a set phrase: you could substitute any number of synonyms for either of the parts, or you could paraphrase the idea, and it would all be pretty much the same thing. The implication that the second entry is being deleted because it taps into a "primordial fear" is utter nonsense. An argument could be made that it's a knee-jerk reaction to a newbie not following the unwritten rules, but there's nothing racist about that.

As for "Non-Black Wiktionarians love to claim that racist terms don't offend them": no one has said that. On the contrary, a number of us have pointed out how offensive they are. I think your initial point was that we aren't offended, and that is the source of the problem. That would make more sense, and it's the exact opposite of what you're saying here.

You started out with a point, but now it looks like you're just saying stuff because you feel like you're supposed to. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:12, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Replace first sense with {{&lit}}, as proposed by Metaknowledge. Keep others, not SOP. J3133 (talk) 14:53, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

• Keep - I hereby withdraw my RFD. - Dentonius (my politics | talk) 16:06, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

First sense replaced with {{&lit}}, others kept (and RFD withdrawn by nominator, too). - -sche (discuss) 05:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

(But as an editorial comment: the other senses seem poised to fail RFV because they have too few citations of use as opposed to mentions, so the entry may wind up being deleted after all...but for lack of attestation.) - -sche (discuss) 05:11, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

RFV discussion: July 2020–March 2021

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This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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nigger killer

A vinegaroon or whip scorpion. I created this entry some years ago, can't remember where I saw the word, but it seems impossible to attest in use from Google Books, though there are a few mentions, e.g. (1976, Arthropods of Florida and Neighboring Land Areas, page 22) "This large, semi-chelate whip scorpion has several local colloquial common names. Marx (1886) listed nigger killer, mule killer, grampus, vinaigrier, and vinegar maker." I am not sure which Marx that was; the one you're thinking of died in 1883. Equinox ◑ 01:48, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The Marx in question is George Marx. I'm not sure any of the texts mentioning this expression are independent of Marx's article. --Lvovmauro (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

The Marx I'm thinking of died in 1977. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Lvovmauro has just extended the entry with a lot more entries, and some citations, which is nice (thanks!). We still have the use-mention problem. Equinox ◑ 09:59, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 22:16, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Re-opened because one of the three citations is a dictionary, not a use, and another is of "people who call it Nigger Killer", which is probably a mention(?). The sweet potato sense also has a mention for one of its three citations, and the "rum" sense has mentions for two of its three citations, even if we tolerate the variation in hyphenation, etc. I'll try to see if I can find any more citations myself later. - -sche (discuss) 22:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

I have updated the citations. Everything except the whip scorpion has three non-mention citations now. The whip scorpion has two, with the third being "the people who call it "Nigger killer". Kiwima (talk) 03:49, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

RFV-resolved I have removed the scorpion and kept the others. Kiwima (talk) 08:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)