Talk:many and varied

RFD discussion: February 2021–March 2022

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This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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many and varied

Is this SOP? Examples on Google Books look like they mean "many (numerous), and also varied (various, different)", e.g. "The Many and Varied Adventures of Afro-Puff Girl", "our many and varied senses", "the root causes of juvenile delinquency are many and varied and [...] the factors contributing to it are as many and varied". - -sche (discuss) 22:01, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I feel like it's special because many isn't usually followed by and plus another adjective. There are many good students in this class not *There are many and good students in this class, even if what you're saying is that there are many students and all of them are good. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

But if someone says, there are many and varied explanations, they do not mean to say that there are many explanations all of which are varied. If someone wanted to express say this (somewhat unlikely) sense, they should actually say, there are many varied explanations. Here a bride is said to have received ”many and acceptable” gifts. Here we learn that Father Christmas brings “many and nice” presents every Christmas. Here the returns of the day are wished to be “many and happy” ones. And here reference is made to India’s “many and colourful” festivals. The uses of "many and adj“ are many and varied.  --Lambiam 15:25, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they were once, but of the four cites you give, one is from the 1880s, two are from the first decade of the 20th century, and the fourth is in Indian English, which is famous for being more old-fashioned than British or American English. I'd definitely call the "many and adj" construction dated, except in many and varied, which survives as a set phrase. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

I would imagine that "many and varied" is much the most common example of this pattern nowadays, tending towards a set phrase, and I agree that arbitrary combinations are likely to sound odd or dated to modern speakers, but for me "many and varied" is not the only combination possible in normal modern Englsh. Just flicking through Google results, I found e.g. "many and widespread", "many and complex", "many and diverse" and "many and painful", all of which I would read without noticing anything particularly unusual. Abstain on the RFD. Mihia (talk) 20:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Like "prim and proper" and "fish and chips", you can't reverse the order. Equinox ◑ 21:04, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

• Keep — Dentonius 08:32, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• Delete - unless someone can write a definition that isn't SoP. Looks like more of a writing guide phrase: There were many and lovely young women in the kingdom There were many and strange creatures in the lagoon. Facts707 (talk) 23:17, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

• Delete. The significant attestation of many and diverse and many and various (also should be deleted if this is) in the COCA points to this not being lexicalized, even in contemporary English. In addition, many other compounds of the form "many and <adjective>" are attested. To Equinox's note, I think prim and proper is a common collocation (and could use its own nomination for deletion) and fish and chips has lexicalized. For many and varied, I think the order is fixed by the standards of adjective order in English. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 01:44, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

  Delete. DAVilla 08:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• Keep per Mahagaja. --Fytcha (talk) 20:38, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
• Delete - many and varied X is simply saying there are many Xs, which are varied. --Rishabhbhat (talk) 11:29, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• Keep as a set phrase per Equinox, and for the many and varied reasons provided by comments above, generally. bd2412 T 07:08, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mahagaja, Equinox: Would I be correct in interpreting your comments in this discussion as preferring to keep the entry? bd2412 T 20:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@BD2412: Please interpret my comments as an Abstain. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:03, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks for clarifying. bd2412 T 20:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@BD2412: I have got little interest in this entry and wouldn't really fight for it. (I am mostly interested in single words.) But "many and varied" is a thing, and "varied and many" isn't. Go figure. Sorry, I don't feel strongly enough to take a specific position here. Equinox ◑ 07:16, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

• Delete. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 13:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
• Keep per Equinox. This shouldn’t be interpreted as a weak keep, either - I find the argument that it is a set phrase persuasive. Theknightwho (talk) 16:22, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

No consensus to delete. As things stand, we have six !votes to delete (counting the nominator, even though the nominitation is phrased in the inquisitive), and four !votes to keep, along with three asbtainers, although the abstainers make various arguments which appear to weigh in favor of or against keeping the entry. There is not, in the end, a clear consensus for deletion of the phrase. bd2412 T 05:32, 24 March 2022 (UTC)