Talk:kungyari

Source

@Mlgc1998 What's your source for this word? Mar vin kaiser (talk) 03:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser CEDOF Part 2 by Zorc (1981) at p.102 records both kunyari and kunwari. I've come across the confusion before and I've read people in reddit also confused by it, but the definitions merely converge due to the similar experiences used for them even with different rootwords. The former literally means "if (it) happens", while the latter literally means "if (it) seems" or "if in my opinion". The interpretation leading to "pretense" is a result of the convergence of these definitions and their lexical and phonological similarity made people conflate them more together. Mlgc1998 (talk) 04:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I'll look into this. But if people conflate it. It can become one word. Since we're being descriptive, not prescriptive. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser If the spellings become just one and the same. Otherwise, the difference in rootword but with convergence in meaning will just make them as synonyms of each other or each one gaining a new definition sense and older senses later becoming dated to obsolete if those get forgotten. Mlgc1998 (talk) 05:31, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @Mlgc1998 Does kungyari even exist? Or is it just some attempt to justify kunyari variant and coincidentally the yari word exists? Cung yari don't seem to exist. Could be eggcorn. Is conouari used as kungyari before? Ysrael214 (talk) 05:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Yeah, feels like an eggcorn. Let's wait for Mlgc1998's response. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 05:55, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 If it doesn't exist, how did kunyari get a Y instead? and how did Zorc record that back in 1981? or if u type "kungyari" in Google Books Search, several books all use it, sometimes even spelling it as "kung yari" with a space in between. It's basically just "kung mangyari ..." being shortened to "kungyari". Just like, "parang" naturally comes from people shortening "para bang ..." or "para lang ..." or "para kang ..." or "para siyang ..." and etc. Mlgc1998 (talk) 06:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 Could be just to say it better by the tongue (especially the /ɲ/ sound exists), that's just one vowel from /w/ to /j/ (both close to front vowels /u/ and /i/) or could be eggcorn. Zorc wrote that back because the variant of kunwari existed by then but my point was if it existed as well with the Spanish dictionaries (since it's a univerbation, should be a common thing to say) or could be a modern sound shift and did not arise from kung + yari. For "parang", that's just how the -ng suffix works? "Bagong buhay", "Bago kong buhay". Besides mangyari has no glottal stop while kunyarì has. Panganiban also wrote kunyari with kunyarì so that isn't colloquial only, I think. Ysrael214 (talk) 06:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 @Mar vin kaiser And oh, kungyari (in this spelling without space) is hardly attested in 20th century (1900-1999) that means "supposedly" the way we use kunwari and actually means "if done" so could really be a modern change. I mean there are hits but not used similarly. Ysrael214 (talk) 06:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 It is a common thing I've heard of around where I grew up and I don't remember the kungyari or kunyari that means for example to be said with glottal stop. The kunyari I've heard of that has glottal stop has different parts of speech and does refer to pretense. The kungyari/kunyari I've heard of is like for example, "Kungyari 'yun 'yung nangyari, ...." or "Kungyari ganito mangyayari, ....". It would sound weird to me if the kungyari there was said with a glottal stop. Here is a book that uses kungyari. Also, before I made the entry before, I remember I had an idea that this word didn't feel very old, but just felt it was one of those natural particles that merged these past generations or so. I've always heard this word along with kumbaga being intercharged, but usually referring to situational happenings. For kunwari, that one has all the prefixes connected to it. It would be weird to me to put those same prefixes on kungyari. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 Do you have a non-2000s example? That's when we conflate it already. Around 1900-1999 range. Kumbaga sounds more of a "hence", than "for instance". Trying this example, "Kumbagá, may dalawang apple ako at nagdagdag ako ng isa, ilan na siya?" Does this work the same as "Kungyari, may dalawang apple ako at nagdagdag ako ng isa." Ysrael214 (talk) 07:12, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 I don't get your example. Both of those look and sound perfectly normal to me to mean "for example/instance". I would expect the Tagalog speakers I've always heard from around where I live or my schools before or family to say that. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:18, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 "Tinitangala sila ng kabataan. Kungyari, sila ang tagaturo ng kung ano ang dapat gawin.", "Kungyari ay nagalit si Maria kasi hindi nangyari ang gusto niya."

If I switch them around: "Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kungyari tatlo na yun.", with "Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kumbaga tatlo na yun.". @Mar vin kaiser Does this sound similar to you as well? Ysrael214 (talk) 07:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 Idk what's wrong in these sentences. Let me translate them how I understood them:

"Tinitingala sila ng kabataan. Kungyari, sila ang tagaturo ng kung ano ang dapat gawin." = "The children are looking up to them. For example, they are the teachers on what should be done."

"Kungyari ay nagalit si Maria kasi hindi nangyari ang gusto niya." = "Let's say Maria got mad because what she wanted didn't happen."

"Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kungyari tatlo na yun." = "I added two apples to one, if that happens that's three already."

"Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kumbaga tatlo na yun." = "I added two apples to one, that is to say that's three already." Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Also the first two sentences there, I think it should be "kunyari" if it is about pretending. I don't fully get it if "kungyari" is used there and I'd assume it's more like the "kunyari" pretense being talked about. Mlgc1998 (talk) 07:40, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 "Tinitingala sila ng kabataan. Kumbaga, sila ang tagaturo ng kung ano ang dapat gawin." = They are being looked up to by the children. In a way/Like, they are the teachers on what should be done.

"Kumbaga ay nagalit si Maria kasi hindi nangyari ang gusto niya." = In a way (in consequence), Maria got mad because what she wanted didn't happen.

"Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kungyari tatlo na yun." = I added two apples to one, let's say (for example) that's three already.

"Nagdagdag ako ng dalawang apple sa isa, kumbaga tatlo na yun." = I added two apples to one, so (in consequence) that's three already. Can also be "I added two apples to one, in a sense, that's three already.

Also going back to the focus is if kungyari is from kunwari or kung yari, there is this example in Noceda's conouari (defined as como si) that matches the written definition at the kungyari entry - for instance, let's say (or more like let's pretend that) example

Magbaras ca con tayo,i, masoc sa bayan at conouari bilango ca.

Magbaras ka kung tayo'y pumasok sa bayan at kunwari bilanggo ka.

Use a stick if we enter the town and let's say (for example/let's pretend that) you're a prisoner

Can also be used as "and you're as if (gonna be) a prisoner", or "and you're (gonna be) like a prisoner"

Isn't that closer to the kungyari definition written? And it hasn't happened yet so it cannot be kung yari. Ysrael214 (talk) 08:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 I mean the similarity in meaning converging to pretense was never in question. If ever kunyari somehow colloquially sprung up from kunwari at some point in the 20th century, the sources available in Google Books and Google Search so far and Zorc's 1981 CEDOF, it seems it would've sprung up around the 1980s, that is that, there is a "kunyari" and that there is an understanding that it comes from "kung" + "yari" to literally mean "if it happened", which later grew in usage among whichever person scattered across Metro Manila at least and began being colloquially used online as well to the point that kungyari as an alt form to that understanding also started making itself known in the 2000s when people in ph started getting internet connection. If it did branch off of kunwari, I'm wondering if it's because somebody didn't quite understand anymore what the root word "wari" means and thought that just like kumbaga, that the prefix must be kung and to make sense of things, somehow yari was brought to the table due to its similarity in spelling. Perhaps, someone at some point misinterpreted the v in "conovari" as a y, but if they saw such old written works, they should've wondered why there's an o before v. If it's not due to the writing, somebody might've misheard the -ou-/-ov-/-w- sound to be -y- but do we have other examples of this sound change? Mlgc1998 (talk) 08:41, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998

Kunyari existed in Panganiban's as well (he says it comes from kunwari) so around 1970s. I think it's not a written thing but a mishearing thing. I can't think of anything right now with the /w/ -> /j/ sound shift. Only thing that comes to mind right now is siyokoy from *suykoy/swikoy idk how is that supposed to be rendered from Hokkien to Tagalog ortho and that's more on metathesis. Ysrael214 (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214 For siyokoy, being from 水鬼 (tsuí-kuí), if it was borrowed from Hokkien in modern times as-is, it would sound or be spelled like "tsuwikuwi"/tswikwi" in Tagalog. Idk tho when Tagalog behaviorally takes out the CH/TS in front in favor of S, but anyways, this reminds me of tikoy coming from 甜粿 (tiⁿ-kóe), which on one hand, it could've been borrowed as "tikuwe"/"tikwe", but instead, people heard it as "tikoy" instead. Although, not sure if the sound change is comparable for syllable initials. Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:49, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998 There's also the himpapawid, himpapayid alteration but Vocabulario has payid as the earlier one. But yea they do get interchanged at times. Ysrael214 (talk) 11:53, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Don't ask me because the word "kungyari" isn't familiar to me in the first place. I'm not used to having NG in this word. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:25, 22 September 2023 (UTC)