Talk:anomalya

Baybayin Variants from Spanish Spellings

@TagaSanPedroAko Correct me if I'm wrong, because as far as I know, all Baybayin spellings are phonetic and not based on how words are spelled. So the way you spelled the second Baybayin word as "a-no-ma-li-a" would mean that there is a glottal stop between "li" and "a", like the word "balian" (ba-li-an). So I don't think that's a right Baybayin spelling. And so the other "Spanish" Baybayin spellings you added --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 13:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Baybayin spelling is not standardized, and while Tagalog orthography in Latin script has been standardized, the Baybayin forms I entered are mostly possibilities. Tagalog has codified rules on spelling diphthongs like “ia” depending on the preceding consonants and their pronunciation, but we still don't have a standardized Baybayin orthography. My thoughts is Baybayin forms aren't necessarily a transliteration of the modern Tagalog spelling standardized by the KWF. TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagSanPedroAko: No, I don't think you understood what I meant haha. I meant that Baybayin is never based on any modern spelling, neither KWF spelling nor Spanish spelling, because the Baybayin is phonetic. It's only based on how the word is pronounced. So in Baybayin, if it's spelled differently, it's pronounced differently. That's just what Baybayin is. That's the reason why the Tagalog word "ng" is not spelled in Baybayin is "ng" but using two glyphs "na-ng". And "mga" is spelled in Baybayin as "ma-nga". And the same reason why "anomalya" would be spelled "a-no-ma-l-ya". If yous spell it like "a-no-ma-li-a", that implies a glottal stop between I and A, like in the word "tulian" (tu-li-an, to circumcise). --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 22:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I see, but I think you forget Baybayin forms seem to correspond well with historical spellings that retain diphthongs with I and U followed an A, E or O such as “siam” (siyam) and “buaya” (buwaya; the historical spelling also the form still in use in Ilocano and Cebuano). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:33, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

To add to that, Ilocano spelling also retains such diphthongs unlike Tagalog e.g. kenkuana, and also in loanwords such as eleksion, where syllabified for conversion to Baybayin/Kur-itan would be ke-n-ku-a-na and e-lek-si-on respectively. Tagalog “anomalya” would have been Ilocano “anomalia” following common spelling of such diphthongs, not the KWF standard (the three I mentioned, if Ilocano followed KWF standard, would have been *kenkuwana and *eleksiyon). TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAKo: I don't think we should be thinking about "conversions", but instead whether in Baybayin with virama, whether the vowel implies a glottal stop before it. I'm looking for samples online, could you also help me look? Because if it doesn't, then you're right, but if it does, then I'm right. I just wanna be sure with this, I hope you understand. All the samples I see online are modern samples, either they try spelling it with modern Tagalog spelling, or they get the phonetic spelling wrong. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:52, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I would also like to invite @Houflings here, which is also actively adding Baybayin forms. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 01:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

i think people follow this chart [1], the website has more information about baybayin that may define how people spell Houflings (talk) 02:48, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

i think we should include spellingz like ᜉᜎᜁ (palai) of palay, but i think we shouldnt include spellings based on Spanish spelling Houflings (talk) 03:10, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Houflings: By the way, it would help if you tag people when you reply, so that they see it. For the Baybayin word "pa-la-i", did you see that somewhere or you just thought of spelling it like that? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:50, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Houflings: I saw your edit in bahay-ampunan, where you spelled bahay in Baybayin also as "ba-ha-i", which is related to this discussion. Maybe you could also find it spelled like that anywhere else? --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 11:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser @TagaSanPedroAko @Houflings Almost two years late and we probably got things in order by then but to conclude this with finality, follow phonetics. Mateo is written in UST Baybayin Document B as Ma-ti-yo and Cecilia was written in UST Baybayin Document A - Si-si-ya which implies the "l" would have been having the vowel killer if made later. Now in this case, anomalia should still be written as A-NO-MA-L-YA. For diphthongs like aw/ay, being spelled as a-o, or a-i is wrong (Likely source is Constantino Lendoyro but I think he hypercorrects the Spanish spellings as well like araw becoming a-ra-o) and just do a-w or a-y, reference here is the UST Baybayin documents and Arte de lengua tagala 1610, and Doctrina Christiana since they are closer to the original method. I think the current KWF standards of spelling tries to be close to the Baybayin sylalbification anyway so that's still pretty close

(except for the e-<vowel> and o-<vowel> without glottal stop in between, use e-y<vowel> or o-w<vowel>).

palay is only pa-la-y or pa-la (pre-krus kudlit) but never pa-la-i. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser damn... its so weird,,, the 'historically accurate' spelling for these is without the final semivowel, not considering accuracy, the only instances i found were in Facebook account usernames... theyre all probably created by a automatic transcriptor to baybayin as "May"/mey/ is spelled ᜋᜁ (mai), but you canbconsider spellings that these websites might blurt out alternative forms. i think ᜌ᜔/ᜏ᜔ and ᜁ/ᜂ spellings should both be included, ᜁ/ᜂ reduce usage of the virama and sometimes people like that, while ᜌ᜔/ᜏ᜔ would be for consistency with vowels that have initial glottal stop. ] i think. the Balarila ng Wikang Pambansa under KWF spells buhay, ᜊᜓᜑᜌ᜔ (buhay)

Houflings (talk) 12:08, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Do we currently have a section for Baybayin for an editing guide? Also, I've noticed that we're not putting the non-virama versions of Baybayin in words. I think that's alright, it's a choice. But for the Baybayin we put in entries, yeah I agree it should follow phonetics. But even then, there would have to be spelling rules to be followed in certain cases where ambiguity arises. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:21, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Currently not a formal one, Appendix:Baybayin script I have no time to write. Though I did create the documentation here:Template:tl-baybayin_script/documentation.

Pre-virama is easy to write as

• ᜉ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔ᜐᜒᜐ᜔ᜃᜓ (pransisku) ({{tl-bay sc|Francisco|disp=1}}) and
• ᜉᜇᜐᜒᜃᜓ (parasiku) ({{tl-bay sc|Francisco|disp=1|trad=1}}).

But, I think the non-virama versions should be in the Baybayin entry as an alt form, or having multiple Baybayin entries in the Latin-script entry can confuse people. Ysrael214 (talk) 00:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Nice. Not a bad idea. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2023 (UTC)