Talk:臺灣
Add topicLatest comment: 2 years ago by RcAlex36 in topic Dutch
semi-simplified form 台灣
[edit]MoE and guoxuedashi.com both have an entry for 臺灣 but not 台灣. zh:汉字规范 says 台 is a "vulgar character" zh:俗字 being used in place of 臺; originally they were two different characters. I think a source better than simply the newspaper article would be appropriate to help us represent the current situation better. Hongthay (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
- @Hongthay: Here's the current situation AFAIK:
- Most people use 台 instead of 臺 in both Hong Kong and Taiwan.
- Google
"台灣" -"臺灣" -"台湾"vs."臺灣" -"台灣" -"台湾"- Hong Kong only: 8,910,000 vs. 823,000
- Taiwan only: 67,700,000 vs. 32,900,000
- Google
- 台 is the standard in Hong Kong. (Search 台 here.)
- Dictionaries following the standards set out by the MOE would never use 台 in 臺灣.
- At Wiktionary, we are not supposed to be prescriptive, i.e. we don't need to strictly adhere to any "standard". We are instead descriptive, i.e. we describe what people use.
- Most people use 台 instead of 臺 in both Hong Kong and Taiwan.
- Hope this clears things up for you. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 03:05, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Given the evidence, shouldn't the lemmatised entry be 台灣? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:06, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge, Justinrleung, Hongthay, Wyang: I think the reason for lemmatisation at 臺灣, rather than the more common traditional 台灣 or the simplified 台湾 is based on the principle Chinese entries are lemmatised at traditional in the first place, rather than simplified forms. It's easier that way, both etymologically and technically. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- But 台灣 is also traditional. We have to make the choice to avoid duplication, so we chose Traditional. There is then a subchoice of which traditional variant to lemmatise, and I think we should do it based on descriptive principles (i.e., what's most common). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:06, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- 臺灣 is the form favoured by the Ministry of Education of Taiwan, and all of its dictionaries, websites, documents use this form. There is not even an entry for 台灣 in Ministry of Education's Chinese Dictionary to acknowledge that it is a variant form, unlike many of the other variants. This was debated on the Chinese Wikipedia before for a long time, and the consensus was to use 臺灣 as the article title/traditional form. Wyang (talk) 06:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: Like I said, it's easier that way, both etymologically and technically. Etymologically, since 臺 is the original form. Technically, since the conversion from traditional to simplified is far easier, than the other way around. 台 has too many etymologies, and is itself a traditional form. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Wyang MoE's Guoyu Cidian doesn't have 台灣 because it has been standardized as 臺灣, just like it doesn't have 衞生 or 麪包. @Metaknowledge While it is true that 台灣 is probably more common, I think an additional factor to consider for Chinese entries is the notion of "orthodoxy", i.e. which form is considered "standard", which I'd say is still within prescriptivism since people need to know which form is considered standard. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that people should know which form is standard, and indeed documenting that is part of descriptivism. (That's why there has to be a usage note for this entry.) I will of course concede to whatever the Chinese editors prefer, but I personally see adherence to another dictionary's orthodoxy as rather in contravention of the descriptive approach we use at Wiktionary. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- It should be 臺灣. And I doubt 台灣 is more common in Hong Kong. The indicated dictionary simply treats 臺 and 台 as variants. You should be careful with 台 being "also traditional". The truth is the divide between traditional and simplified doesn't exist. They are all Chinese characters. Different regions apply different standards, and the usage of these characters are correct within the respective standards. Hong Kong/Macao and RoC usages are also different. Users of traditional claim to use "purer/older/more traditional" Chinese, but the same people use 台灣 instead of 臺灣 because they themselves are too lazy to write out the characters. It all comes down to a political argument. These people probably never read any ancient texts. Character substitution is a very common practice throughout Chinese history. In fact, many characters today don't represent what they graphically stand for. The problem with 台 is that in a traditional setting, it is usually not pronounced tái. The mainland city of 台州 is pronounced Tāizhōu, that's why it stays 台 in both simplified and traditional. I have a problem with 臺山 (Táishān) claming that 台山 is more common in traditional Chinese. The Wikipedia article doesn't even mention the traditional form 臺山. 台山 is a mainland city, and mainland China has also defined their set of traditional characters, which don't coincide with RoC usage. --89.246.121.221 17:25, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that people should know which form is standard, and indeed documenting that is part of descriptivism. (That's why there has to be a usage note for this entry.) I will of course concede to whatever the Chinese editors prefer, but I personally see adherence to another dictionary's orthodoxy as rather in contravention of the descriptive approach we use at Wiktionary. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Wyang MoE's Guoyu Cidian doesn't have 台灣 because it has been standardized as 臺灣, just like it doesn't have 衞生 or 麪包. @Metaknowledge While it is true that 台灣 is probably more common, I think an additional factor to consider for Chinese entries is the notion of "orthodoxy", i.e. which form is considered "standard", which I'd say is still within prescriptivism since people need to know which form is considered standard. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 14:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge: Like I said, it's easier that way, both etymologically and technically. Etymologically, since 臺 is the original form. Technically, since the conversion from traditional to simplified is far easier, than the other way around. 台 has too many etymologies, and is itself a traditional form. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- 臺灣 is the form favoured by the Ministry of Education of Taiwan, and all of its dictionaries, websites, documents use this form. There is not even an entry for 台灣 in Ministry of Education's Chinese Dictionary to acknowledge that it is a variant form, unlike many of the other variants. This was debated on the Chinese Wikipedia before for a long time, and the consensus was to use 臺灣 as the article title/traditional form. Wyang (talk) 06:23, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- But 台灣 is also traditional. We have to make the choice to avoid duplication, so we chose Traditional. There is then a subchoice of which traditional variant to lemmatise, and I think we should do it based on descriptive principles (i.e., what's most common). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:06, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Metaknowledge, Justinrleung, Hongthay, Wyang: I think the reason for lemmatisation at 臺灣, rather than the more common traditional 台灣 or the simplified 台湾 is based on the principle Chinese entries are lemmatised at traditional in the first place, rather than simplified forms. It's easier that way, both etymologically and technically. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:30, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Given the evidence, shouldn't the lemmatised entry be 台灣? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:06, 24 June 2018 (UTC)
Teochew aspiration
[edit]Lim Hiong Seng has unaspirated dai5 uang5, like Hokkien — obsolete pronunciation? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 18:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
- @Suzukaze-c: Probably borrowed from Hokkien if such a pronunciation did exist. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:56, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense: "Taiwan Strait". --沈澄心✉ 09:56, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging @Geographyinitiative, who added this sense in this diff. Is 臺灣 (without 海峽) ever used to mean the strait? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 21:02, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- （Withdrawn) 21:06, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
- RFV failed. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 02:35, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
Common Error
[edit](Withdrawn) 21:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't understand why you pinged me on this. I've got almost zero knowledge of Asia, I'm afraid. Equinox ◑ 03:39, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
Dutch
[edit]@Geographyinitiative 大員 is attested in 東番記 [1602]. Your claim that the word is borrowed from Dutch is doubtful. RcAlex36 (talk) 17:38, 18 February 2022 (UTC)