Talk:の

…の馬鹿野郎

While being ashamed to say in my clumsy English, I subtly but certainly feel something is wrong with the example sentence "お前の馬鹿野郎!". Examples below would be ok:

• 山田の馬鹿野郎!
• ソニーの馬鹿野郎!
• 姉さんの馬鹿野郎!
• 夕日の馬鹿野郎!

But the followings wouldn't:

• お前の馬鹿野郎!
• 彼の馬鹿野郎!

At the least proper nouns seem acceptable. (I've found a document in Japanese linguistically discussing the reason behind it.) --Tohru 16:46, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

RE: Request for cleanup

When I put "case particle", I was following this style guide: Wiktionary:About Japanese. Millie 23:19, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. Maybe none of us have given it a good looking at. Sadly I don't have time either ): — Hippietrail 01:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Omae no bakayarou

I changed the example. Is that better, Tohru? Millie 23:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Seems perfect. Thanks a lot! --Tohru 03:34, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Script issues

Is there a way to specify sc=Jpan for the Mandarin section? Actual use looks closer (graphically speaking) to の (with sc=Jpan) than to (deprecated template usage) の (with sc=Hani). --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:54, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It's non-standard script fro Mandarin, requires non-standard headers. Done. See also OK#Mandarin --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:59, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

It will always look out of place and stand out in a Chinese text, e.g. 優の良品. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:04, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

RFD 2012

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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の#Mandarin

Moved from RFV

Is it really part of Mandarin, despite the sign (it's a hiragana letter and a possessive particle pronounced "no" in Japanese)? The Japanese 駅 (eki) (a Japanese specific character, absent in Mandarin) also occasionally appears on HK signs as many English and other language words. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:43, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Attaching the image:

優之良品 (uses の for 之)

. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:44, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Japanese to me, or at least an attempt to evoke Japanese. I'm surprised they didn't create Mandarin entries for "aji" and "ichiban", too. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The Japanese company name is indeed 優の良品 (Yū no Ryōhin) (as in the image) or 味一番 (Aji Ichiban) - hence the English name "Aji Ichiban" "Taste Number one". The Chinese name is 優之良品 (trad.) or 优之良品 (simp.) (Hanyu pinyin: Yōu zhī Liángpǐn, Yale (Cantonese): yau1 ji1 leung4 ben2) "Superior Articles". So, having a Japanese and English signs on top of the shop in Hong Kong doesn't prove anything.

Although it's interesting, the Mandarin section should be deleted, IMO. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Aji Ichiban is romaji, not English. — This unsigned comment was added by Chuck Entz (talk • contribs).

I've just read about the company. In Japan the company is officially called 優の良品 Rōmaji: "Yū no Ryōhin", even though its English name (as you correctly noticed, derived from Rōmaji "Aji Ichiban" (in Japanese, 味一番). The latter is not used in Japan, which causes some confusion between the English and Japanese names of the company. If you throw in the Chinese reading, it will be even more confusing! The Japanese and Chinese meanings both differ from the translated meaning in English. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:10, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I have seen this in running Mandarin text (in a Japanophiliac HK mini-restaurant), but I really am not sure how I would cite it. I'm glad that I've brought it to attention by nominating it, though. Please note that according to the FWOTD rules, this word cannot be featured while it is still in an unclosed request for verification. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:44, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I created this entry. It is quite common in Taiwan to use の in Mandarin, and it is usually read 的. Just go there and you’ll find a lot of の. Some websites: [1] [2] [3]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:07, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is seen often on signs and labels in different colours and shapes but does it make the word Chinese? You can also see many English words on signs and labels. It's a Japanese character used in Chinese. It's not used in texts. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:22, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

You are confusing characters and words. It’s a Chinese word because they pronounce it as 的 and use it as such, not as the Japanese の. A Japanese with no knowledge of Chinese will have a difficulty in reading 好吃の涼麵. The first example of this section, 優の良品, would not be correct in Japanese either, but it is all right as a Chinese name. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:38, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm not confusing anything. It's not frequent enough to justify the inclusion. Signs use various effects with symbols, numbers, verbals and non-verbal methods. I mentioned myself that I've seen Japanese 駅 (eki) instead of the standard 站 (zhàn) "station", obviously 駅 (eki) was used as a fashionable symbol and pronounced as "zhàn", not as expected "yì" (the Chinese variants of 駅 (eki) are 驛 / 驿 (yì)/驿 (yì)). の hasn't become part of Chinese colloquial or formal writing. Compare with "I ♥ you" (as I mentioned below) or please ☏ this number. We also had numerous discussions about "我吃pizza", "我开一个party" and the like. In this case, 駅 or の are not borrowings, they are like ♥ or ☏ symbols. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:10, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge. I've seen it too and discussed it with Chinese speakers and other learners but I liken it to "I ♥ you" or similar where symbols or words from other scripts can be used. It's a show-off to achieve some effect no more. Not sure this could be described as usage in a language. The signs in HK and Taiwan (I haven't been to Taiwan but I've seen in movies/TV series) are full of Chinese/English/Japanese or even Korean mixture. Chinese regions bordering Russia have now many signs in (often incorrect) Russian or mixture. Well, is a colloquial borrowing (a special kind of bread in North-East China) from Russian хлеб (xleb) "bread". Since it's written in Chinese characters, it can be included here but not if it were written in Cyrillic.

We have allowed only a small number of Latin-based abbreviations to be classified as Mandarin, when they were created by Chinese, included in Chinese dictionaries and their usage was confirmed. Foreign names and derivatives (somebody's law, theorem, etc.) are sometimes written in Latin + Chinese for clarity - it's difficult to transcribe foreign names into Mandarin but the foreign spelling is not integrated in Chinese. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:14, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

After edit conflict. Will answer TAKASUGI Shinji's answer later. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:14, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

@Takasugi3: I agree with you, but those websites are non-durable by our standards. We still need three citations.
@Anatoli: I think that in this case, it's worth keeping, but all your arguments don't really belong here. If you want to, bring it to RFD. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:30, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

These are books written in Mandarin (traditional characters) by Taiwanese:

• 朱力亞の手作包, →ISBN
• 打造個人化の網站 XOOPS 2.3.x 完全實戰手冊, →ISBN
• 梅問題の超質感商品攝影手法大公開, →ISBN

See carefully how the website uses 的 for indexing instead of の. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:31, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow! Well done. I'm almost convinced. Do you think this replacement has to do with indexing? The の character only appears on images (obviously also on the paper book titles). Will that count as a valid citation? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:43, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, those appear to be valid citations. By the way, Anatoli, no pressure, but if you retract the nomination for deletion it can become a FWOTD candidate again. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:33, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

OK, even if I doubt these sites are durable. Can someone add the citations first? I don't know how to add citations if the term in question only appears on images, not in the text. Should there be a note? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:45, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

The site is non-durable, but they are proof that the book covers exist, and the book covers themselves are durable. I would just link to them like any other external link, and if books.com.tw does shut down and create mass linkrot, we can always find the links without too much trouble. (I would add the citation myself, but I think it might be wiser to leave it to someone considerably more advanced than me :) --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:03, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Kept. Satisfied with results and removed rfd as a nominator. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:29, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The Taiwan and Hong Kong uses do seem to be legitimate. I added a reference from Mandarin wikipedia which essentially claims the same thing as TAKASUGI. Although, no citations are given in the Mandarin Wikipedia article, the explanation seems plausible enough. -- A-cai (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I have changed the second example above. I found the original one (從最簡單の線條開始：簡單插畫BOOK(3)) to be a translation from Japanese, which is not the best in this case. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:52, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Use in China

I'm currently travelling in China and have spotted and photographed this two times now I think. I'll see if any of my photos are worth adding to the article. — hippietrail (talk) 16:53, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I ended up with probably a good half dozen photos of の in signs around China. But I found it much more often in Taiwan and probably have one or two dozen photos of it being used there. — hippietrail (talk) 03:22, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that will help if you upload a photo of the actual usage of this character. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:37, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Not Chinese

This is not Chinese. It is Japanese script used in Chinese to achieve a stylish effect, like faux Cyrillic. We don't have Я#English, why this? Wyang (talk) 11:43, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

@Wyang I know, may people commented the same way and it's labeled "non-standard", has usage notes "...Not used in a running Mandarin Chinese text...". The citations were provided. One Chinese speaker from Taiwan took part in the discussion. However, good or bad, the term has passed RFD and is now included in Wiktionary. You can always edit the entry, add more usage notes or start another RFD or RFV process.

I had the same feeling about "мазган" a while ago. There are are positive or negative sides in Wikiprojects. You missed a lot of fun when we had a guy mass-producing Pinyin entries as Chinese words and he avoided all blocks. The problem was he acted in good faith, provided references and even had some supporters. It's only a small number of words, which are not written entirely in Hanzi, which survived. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think one of the examples has a wrong translation.

The word 不可能 (fukanō) located here stands for "impossible". Thus imho the whole sentence means "It's not impossible?" or "It is possible?" or "Is it possible?" rather than the original "It's not possible?". --NikKotovski (talk) 12:59, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

I have fixed it. It means “isn’t it impossible?” — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:44, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Chinese の

The article sais: “Not used in a running Chinese text in any region.“ It is used in a handwritten text, for example in the protagonist’s diary in the Taiwanese movie Our Times: http://uf.cari.com.my/forumx/cforum/portal/201510/25/192723ie8269v6z22z8ke2.jpg . You can see “喜歡の人” and “討厭の人”. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Etymology (-a → -o apophony)

Is no the apophonic form of Old Japanese na (likely the same meaning)?

Also, つ (tsu) is another Old Japanese possessive particle. Are there other possessive particles other than these three? --POKéTalker (talk) 18:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

(Belated reply, seeing this now after being pinged further below...) @Poketalker, you might well have found this out since asking five years ago :) -- there's の・な (no na), つ (tsu), and が (ga) that all serve various genitive / possessive roles in OJP. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:33, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Also だ (da) (seen in 獣 (kedamono) and 果物 (kudamono)), which is sometimes considered obsolete variant of な (na). Arfrever (talk) 13:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Apophony

See Talk:所 and read the whole page long on Vovin's rejection of this particle.

(Notifying Eirikr, TAKASUGI Shinji, Atitarev, Fish bowl, Poketalker, Cnilep, Marlin Setia1, Huhu9001, 荒巻モロゾフ, 片割れ靴下, Onionbar, Shen233, Alves9, Cpt.Guapo, Sartma, Lugria, LittleWhole, Kwékwlos, Mellohi!): Chuterix (talk) 03:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

I reject his rejection. See also User_talk:Chuterix#Block_2. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

There is at least one person (timestamp 9:18) who claims that が and な are doublets, from a compound *nə-ka, where が arose from elision of /ə/ whilst な arose from lenition of /k/, although I guess you wouldn't call this source particularly academic. LittleWhole (talk) 00:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)