Talk:տոլի

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Asatrian says "Arm. toli is, likely, a substrate word; cf. Urartian uduli “grapes” (Łap‘anc‘yan 1961: 330); also (GIŠ)tillatu “vine” in Akkadian (Mkrtčyan 1983: 35). The Udi tal ‘id.’ comes, probably, from Armenian".--Calak (talk) 15:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

@Calak: I know that theory, but the Arabic origin is a much simpler and therefore a more likely solution. @Fay Freak: is the native origin of دَالِيَة (dāliya) from d-l-w secure? --Vahag (talk) 12:57, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan In the sense “noria, waterwheel” native origin is manifest (it is a normal pattern and formation I expect from the root د ل و (d-l-w)), in the sense “vine” it is dubious. Fraenkel whom I had linked on the entry even says it is zweifellos loaned from Aramaic, though I don’t know what could dispel the doubts, neither know I if there has been written more about this word. You see I had applied the {{sl}} template, because it is difficult to shed “separate” words and any meaning could have developed from any meaning, only that I assumed there is at least some interference from Aramaic. I actually find the theory of Urartian origin appealing – phonetically better, isn’t it, maybe the Zqāp̄ā or Qāmaṣ in the Aramaic actually marks dōlīṯā instead of dālīṯā, and it gives a complete picture. How likely do you think that from the meaning “water-wheel” a meaning “vine” or “espalier” can arise? (Hence, I assume, the meanings “varix” and “deltoid”.) Probably Fraenkel’s judgment is that this derivation is not likely and somehow the word is not too common. Look also at how viniculture terms are always likely to be loaned. Of course in Germany anyway, but in the Middle East: Look into John Pairman Brown Israel and Hellas Vol. 1 Chapter 4 “The Mediterranean Vocabulary of the Vine” (cited in λέσχη (léschi)) where he focusses on Greek and Hebrew. In Arabic there is little of wine terms that isn’t foreign. قُلَّة (qulla, “a wine jar”) borrowed, بَاطِيَة (bāṭiya, “a wine vessel”) borrowed, نَاجُود (nājūd, “a wine vessel”) borrowed, كُوب (kūb, “beaker”) borrowed, عُقَار (ʕuqār, “wine that does not delay to intoxicate”) borrowed, كَرْمَة (karma) probably borrowed, وَيْن (wayn) which here is reconstructed hazardously as Proto-Semitic *wayn- and I could not yet find in use is said to be from Old South Arabian, خَمْر (ḵamr) possibly also, the loaned تَاجِر (tājir) originally meant a wine merchant. Fraenkel talks twenty pages pp. 154–173 about wine words borrowed. Fay Freak (talk) 14:34, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I think the senses ‘vine’ and ‘varicose vein’ developed in Semitic languages from the meaning ‘to dangle, to suspend’. Whether this happened in Arabic or Syriac is not that important for our purposes. Middle Armenian borrowed one of the medieval Semitic forms. Among modern dialects the word is restricted only to Cilicia, which speaks against an ancient borrowing and in favour of an Arabic or Syriac borrowing. By the way, Corriente 1997, page 183, has additional Arabic forms, such as dilia, daguili, duaylia. --Vahag (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2018 (UTC)