Talk:զայրանամ

Etymology

@Vahagn Petrosyan, I added Martirosyan's etymology for զայրանամ (zayranam, “to become angry”) but I think an Iranian borrowing is more plausible, especially with զայրագին (zayragin, “angry”), perhaps straight from MIr. *zarīgēn, compare Baluchi بال (zâr, “anger”). What do you think? -- Skiulinamo (talk) 21:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

@Skiulinamo:, be patient, I am still working on this word. Vahag (talk) 10:25, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: No problem, I'm still working on the Iranian end. Was just surpised you created an entry before replying. --Skiulinamo (talk) 17:17, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Skiulinamo: thanks for an original proposal, but a borrowing should not be assumed when there is an easy internal explanation. Besides, the Iranian would give *զար- (*zar-), not զայր- (zayr-). Vahag (talk) 19:31, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Thanks for adding additional sources for the etymology Martirosyan cites, however they do not address the possibility of an Iranian borrowing.

Obviously, MIr. *zar- would yield *զար- (*zar-), but what I'm suggesting is i-epenthesis from a borrowing in the form of *zarya-, which was productive both in MIr. (*zarya- > *zayr- > *zēr-) and PA. --Skiulinamo (talk) 19:51, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Skiulinamo I am not aware of an i-epenthesis in Iranian borrowings. You need to give examples. I-epenthesis is an old phenomenon, operating in inherited words. I expect **զարեայ (**zareay) from *zarya-. Besides, a formation *zar-ya-, is not attested within Iranian. Next, the Iranian would have to be first borrowed as an adjective or noun within Armenian which for some reason disappeared and survived only in the verb զայրանամ (zayranam): -ան- (-an-) would not be directly suffixed to a foreign stem. Sorry, but your new solution is not economical in comparison to the well-known native etymology. There is no need to challenge it. Vahag (talk) 21:13, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan:

1. I can work to compile a list Iranian borrowings with i-epenthesis. -ary- > *-air- > -ēr- was particaly highly productive in Middle Persian so it would be an early pre-Middle Persian borrowing.
2. Iranian *jāriš ~ *jāryaš is reconstructible with established descendants.
3. It's just a easy for an Iranian borrowing to be lost, only to survive in a derived form. We could also just start with the Iranian-suffixed զայրագին (zayragin) next to Parthian 𐫉𐫡𐫏𐫞 (zryq /⁠zarīg⁠/, “sorrow, suffering”).
4. The semantics of PIE *ǵʰrem- (“to vex; to be angry”) to զայրանամ (zayranam, “to become angry”) seem far more economical, as you say, than starting with an abstract and unattested term like *այր (*ayr, “fire”). What of a native Armenian descendant?

--Skiulinamo (talk) 04:21, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Skiulinamo: unless you can show an attested Iranian *zayr- or *zāyr- and find the Armenian simplex **զայր (**zayr, “anger”), this is just an intellectual exercise with ad hoc assumptions. Iranian borrowings are relatively recent and do not disappear․ All derivatives listed at զայրանամ (zayranam) can be derived from the verb. *այր (*ayr, “fire”) may not be attested but we know from այրեմ (ayrem) that it certainly did. Besides, զայրանամ (zayranam) is probably based on the attested verb այրեմ (ayrem, “to burn”), զ- (z-) and -ան (-an) building its intransitive equivalent. "To be inflamed" > "to be angry" is very easy. The other sense "to worsen, to become stronger" said of a disease, itch or wound is easer from "to burn" than from "to vex, to be angry".

I have added your proposal to the list of interesting ones to be looked at by professional linguists, but it can't go into the mainspace, sorry. Please remove it.

PS. I can't arrive to զայրանամ (zayranam) from *ǵʰrem- natively. Vahag (talk) 15:33, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan: Will reply to the above later, but regarding original research, I'm surprised I need to direct you to WT:WFW#How_we_provide_references_and_citations. --Skiulinamo (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course I don't mind original research and I appreciate your original proposal, but when I'm not convinced with the proposal but still see a potential in it I put it in the "uncertain" list to show Hrach one day. Vahag (talk) 20:05, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I've updated the etymology to be clear and concise with a list of direct Iranian cognates attached to an entry. It should hold to the level of scrutiny of any Iranian borrowing.

In regards to a native derivation, is not an original aorist a possibility, something like, and again, please correct me, *h₁é-ǵʰerm- > *ezayr-?

--Skiulinamo (talk) 01:00, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

The examples are from Eastern Iranian, from which Armenian does not borrow, and none of them means "angry". I do not know a single example of Armenian -այր- (-ayr-) reflecting the *-air- stage of the Iranian i-epenthesis, which apparently occurred only in pre-Middle-Persian but not Parthian, whereas Armenian borrowings are from Parthian and Sasanian Era Middle Persian. For example, *Áryah is reflected as Parthian արի (ari) and Sasanian Երան (Eran), but not as intermediate **այր- (**ayr-).

Natively, that PIE form would probably yield **զերմ- (**zerm-). Vahag (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Plenty of Iranian loanwords into Armenian have no attested MP or Parthian cognates (see մշակ (mšak), վերմակ (vermak)), but all the same, this is a very simple construction. I'm glad you read the paper I linked -- it's really quite good. The fact is, there simply aren't many examples of -ry- borrowings into Armenian and monophthongisation was an ongoing process during the Sasanian Period.

Zero-grade *r̥ would have yielded PA *ar and PA aorist *-i did trigger i-epenthesis in several words. If you have no interest in exploring this, I'm not going to bother.

--Skiulinamo (talk) 02:11, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

I am not interested in exploring alternatives to already solved etymologies. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Vahag (talk) 13:06, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

LMFAO, you've made that abundantly clear. --Skiulinamo (talk) 23:24, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan Letting you know that the PIE root *ǵʰrem- is simply a 'proposal' by Victar (split off from some other roots, with a blatant mistake for the root present, but the Sogdian terms are a mess too). The meaning "angered, vexed" for Proto-Iranian *jāryáh is not based on what Bailey gives, Cheung places Khotanese ysera under *zarH³, "to bewail the deceased", from PIE *ǵerh₂ (Greek γῆρυς (gêrus), English care).

So I don't see much reason to keep this suggestion of a borrowing from Iranian.

See also the etymology scriptorium. Exarchus (talk) 19:15, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

If I ever assemble a football team out of Wiktionarians, I will put Victar as our goalkeeper. Even if our opponents score, they will never prove it to him. Vahag (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)