Talk:палец ноги
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Deletion discussion
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Same as Japanese 足の指 above. па́лец ноги́ (pálec nogí) simply means "finger of the foot/leg". Unlike Japanese (足指 ashiyubi), Russian doesn't even have a special word for a toe, they are just called па́льцы (pálʹcy) (fingers) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:57, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
Delete. --WikiTiki89 23:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
- Is it automatically clear for an English-speaking non-speaker of Russian that "finger of foot" means "toe"? If not, this should be kept. BTW, there's a number of languages with similar structure: Portuguese, Spanish, Romanian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Tagalog, Arabic, Bulgarian, Irish, Italian, Macedonian.. I would be inclined to treat them as idiomatic and thus would keep this. The fact that the entry палец has the sense "toe" and there's no entry for ноги does not necessarily make it less confusing. Then the translation becomes "toe of something" and you start wondering what else it could be. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:37, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps a non-Russian speaking person's perspective should be taken into account here and similar forms in other languages. I had some doubts, now I think that we can probably keep it, at least as a back translation. BTW, "ноги́" is genitive singular of нога́ (nogá, “foot, leg”). To be clear, Russian consider toes "finger of the foot", so a person has 20 fingers altogether (thumbs are also fingers - "big fingers"). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:49, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see why it wouldn't be clear, especially since "toe" one of the definitions of палец. --WikiTiki89 13:25, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's because the fact that палец means "toe" does not imply in any way that палец ноги should mean the same. As we don't have ноги, one has to guess. I can imagine many logical guesses, like "toe nail", "toe print", "toe ring"… --Hekaheka (talk) 17:49, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- I would even go as far as to say that "палец ноги" sounds just as awkward in Russian as "finger of the foot" does in English. --WikiTiki89 18:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- In Google Books, there is not a single instance of "finger of the foot." However, there are lots of палец ноги, and I don’t think that includes any oblique forms such as пальцев ног. —Stephen (Talk) 18:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Because it's not useful in English, since we have the word toe. Maybe a better analogy is google books:"finger of the left hand", which gets plenty of hits. In English, if it matters which hand your finger is on, you can add "of the X hand" or "on my X hand" to finger. In Russian, if it really matters whether it's a finger or a toe, you can clarify by adding ноги́ (nogí, “of the foot”), руки́ (rukí, “of the hand”), на ноге́ (na nogé, “on the foot”), на руке́ (na ruké, “on the hand”), or pretty much anything else to па́лец (pálec). --WikiTiki89 19:21, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe we should have back translation entries with usage notes, such as "This term may be considered a sum of parts by a native speaker". Also, toes are very different for fingers - a different body part. From the anatomical point of view, it may be important to have such entries.
- Consider Romanian deget de la picior. If the Russian палец ноги is not kept, so shouldn't Romanian deget de la picior and translations should be split (a bit time-consuming). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:51, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Which translations exactly should be split? We already have translations for fingers and toes on separate pages let alone separate tables. As for anatomy, your pinky toe is quite different from your thumb toe, that doesn't mean they use different definitions of "toe". --WikiTiki89 13:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I meant toe#Translations, of course. I have split some translations like this: Bulgarian: пръст на крак m (prǎst na krak), Russian: па́лец ноги́ m (pálec nogí), па́лец на ноге́ m (pálec na nogé), Czech: prst u nohy m, Romanian: deget de la picior n. Spanish, Portuguese, Polish are already split. Some are not (Latvian, Lithuanian, Arabic, Catalan, etc.).
- Thumbs, little fingers and other fingers have their own entries. Anatomically, fingers and toes are different parts of the body, especially for humans. See thumb, little finger (pinky), index finger --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
The phrase little finger could plausibly just mean "small finger" rather than pinky if you didn't know better (which to me makes it seem idiomatic), whereas phrases like Spanish dedo del pie (and presumably this Russian phrase too) could only refer to toes - there's no other plausible meaning.Mr. Granger (talk) 00:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)- You're right about little finger, but палец ноги means exactly what you would expect, nothing more and nothing less, based on its constituent parts. --WikiTiki89 00:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- It's good that there is no ambiguity, like many other multi-part words, it's unambiguous, like a few words in my post just below and many others. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- You're right about little finger, but палец ноги means exactly what you would expect, nothing more and nothing less, based on its constituent parts. --WikiTiki89 00:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- @Mr. Granger And your point is? We are not talking about synonyms or whether terms can be ambiguous or not here. middle finger, blood vessel, mucous membrane are unambiguous.
- I have reformatted [[палец ноги]] with the usage notes, so if anyone is still pro-keep, please say it. Also, I have split some more translations - Arabic, Persian, Belarusian, Ukrainian. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:42, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I misread what you said, thinking it was an argument to keep the entry. My mistake. Mr. Granger (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- You can interpret it differently. I initiated the RFD but it doesn't mean that I'm against keeping it. It depends on the outcome of this discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. If someone asked me to translate палец ноги and explained to me that it means exactly what I would expect, nothing more and nothing less, then I would translate it as "leg finger". Neither "leg finger" nor "foot finger" are possible in English (except in the case of someone who has had a finger surgically transplanted onto his leg or foot). As far as I’m concerned, specific things merit an entry if a word or phrase exists, even if the phrase is SoP. If there is a specific plant with a scientific name (e.g., Acacia farnesiana), then it deserves to have an entry in English (and every other language) if a native word or phrase exists for it, even if the phrase is SoP. Acacia farnesiana is sweet acacia, and the fact that people usually only call it acacia is beside the point...if it is necessary to be specific, the English term is sweet acacia and we should have an entry for it (even if there are also other common terms for it). A toe is a specific thing, and if a language has a way that the toe can be specified, then it should be kept. IMO, the only legitimate excuse for deleting палец ноги is if it is incorrect or never used. If the entry were "нос стопы" (foot nose), then I would say delete it, because "нос стопы" is incorrect and is never used to mean toe (even though "foot nose" makes more sense to my English ear than "leg finger"). —Stephen (Talk) 09:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of нога́ (nogá). I have updated its definition to clarify. --WikiTiki89 13:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- I know what it means. I’ve been speaking and reading Russian for 48 years or so. —Stephen (Talk) 14:30, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Then you should know that "leg finger" is an unreasonable literal translation. Given the more correct literal translation "leg/foot finger", it is pretty easy to see that it means a toe. --WikiTiki89 14:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- You are speaking from the point of view of someone who has always known what палец ноги meant. For someone who only knows English, but knows that нога means either leg or foot (you have to choose one of the two, and since leg often includes the foot, while foot never includes the leg), I think leg fingers are as likely or more likely than foot fingers...but either one sounds absolutely ridiculous in English. There have been a few cases where someone had a toe transplanted onto a hand, so leg fingers or foot fingers only bring up an image of somebody who has had a finger transplanted onto his foot or knee. Yes, for people who are around languages enough to know that some languages don’t have a separate word for fingers and toes, leg fingers is something they could figure out. Most Americans don’t know anything about other languages except for some Spanish food items and some French things they may have heard in a song, and some Chinese foods. —Stephen (Talk) 15:42, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- How about we ask someone who does not know any Russian?
- Also, you just made me think of another interesting point. In the case that a toe is transplanted onto the hand, it would probably not be called палец ноги (palec nogi), but палец с ноги (palec s nogi), палец из ноги (palec iz nogi), or палец от ноги (palec ot nogi), all meaning "finger from the leg/foot". --WikiTiki89 16:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sounds fine, but I think you should look for someone who speaks only English and does not know any foreign languages. How about: палец пересажен с ноги на руку? —Stephen (Talk) 20:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Is there anyone on this wiki that speaks only English? And yes "палец пересажен с ноги на руку" is fine; it's just "палец с ноги" with greater specificity added. --WikiTiki89 20:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Remember, it can be quite difficult to ask such questions without inadvertently guiding the person towards a certain answer. Also, when Americans start to learn Russian, they learn right away that нога means leg or foot, and that палец means finger. They usually do not hear anything about toes for a long time, if ever. I don’t think you will be able to find anyone on this wiki who has not been tainted by existing discussions. You probably will not find anyone on any of the wikis who is not able to find definitive answers quickly by searching and/or asking, or even using Google Translate. You should carefully devise neutral questions, bearing in mind that when they start learning Russian, they will only learn that нога means leg or foot, and that палец means finger, and then pose the questions in person to neighbors or store clerks. —Stephen (Talk) 20:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Does it matter what they learn first? The question here is whether they can figure it out given our articles on палец and нога. --WikiTiki89 21:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- I think students who have started studying Russian, either in a classroom or on their on, make up a large percentage of the users who have an interest in this, so, yes, it matters. They learn right away the word for leg/foot and the word for finger, and they do not learn anything about the toe. And if you only ask this one question, it will be understood that there is something very special about it, and that will affect the answer. You have to have a number of questions so that this one does not appear to be special, and you have to make sure that they don’t use any other resources. I can already tell that this is going to be a debacle. If you don’t do it right, there is no use in doing it at all. I have said what I have said, and I stand by that. —Stephen (Talk) 21:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Does it matter what they learn first? The question here is whether they can figure it out given our articles on палец and нога. --WikiTiki89 21:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Remember, it can be quite difficult to ask such questions without inadvertently guiding the person towards a certain answer. Also, when Americans start to learn Russian, they learn right away that нога means leg or foot, and that палец means finger. They usually do not hear anything about toes for a long time, if ever. I don’t think you will be able to find anyone on this wiki who has not been tainted by existing discussions. You probably will not find anyone on any of the wikis who is not able to find definitive answers quickly by searching and/or asking, or even using Google Translate. You should carefully devise neutral questions, bearing in mind that when they start learning Russian, they will only learn that нога means leg or foot, and that палец means finger, and then pose the questions in person to neighbors or store clerks. —Stephen (Talk) 20:59, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Is there anyone on this wiki that speaks only English? And yes "палец пересажен с ноги на руку" is fine; it's just "палец с ноги" with greater specificity added. --WikiTiki89 20:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sounds fine, but I think you should look for someone who speaks only English and does not know any foreign languages. How about: палец пересажен с ноги на руку? —Stephen (Talk) 20:32, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- You are speaking from the point of view of someone who has always known what палец ноги meant. For someone who only knows English, but knows that нога means either leg or foot (you have to choose one of the two, and since leg often includes the foot, while foot never includes the leg), I think leg fingers are as likely or more likely than foot fingers...but either one sounds absolutely ridiculous in English. There have been a few cases where someone had a toe transplanted onto a hand, so leg fingers or foot fingers only bring up an image of somebody who has had a finger transplanted onto his foot or knee. Yes, for people who are around languages enough to know that some languages don’t have a separate word for fingers and toes, leg fingers is something they could figure out. Most Americans don’t know anything about other languages except for some Spanish food items and some French things they may have heard in a song, and some Chinese foods. —Stephen (Talk) 15:42, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Then you should know that "leg finger" is an unreasonable literal translation. Given the more correct literal translation "leg/foot finger", it is pretty easy to see that it means a toe. --WikiTiki89 14:45, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- I know what it means. I’ve been speaking and reading Russian for 48 years or so. —Stephen (Talk) 14:30, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe you misunderstand the meaning of нога́ (nogá). I have updated its definition to clarify. --WikiTiki89 13:35, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep. If someone asked me to translate палец ноги and explained to me that it means exactly what I would expect, nothing more and nothing less, then I would translate it as "leg finger". Neither "leg finger" nor "foot finger" are possible in English (except in the case of someone who has had a finger surgically transplanted onto his leg or foot). As far as I’m concerned, specific things merit an entry if a word or phrase exists, even if the phrase is SoP. If there is a specific plant with a scientific name (e.g., Acacia farnesiana), then it deserves to have an entry in English (and every other language) if a native word or phrase exists for it, even if the phrase is SoP. Acacia farnesiana is sweet acacia, and the fact that people usually only call it acacia is beside the point...if it is necessary to be specific, the English term is sweet acacia and we should have an entry for it (even if there are also other common terms for it). A toe is a specific thing, and if a language has a way that the toe can be specified, then it should be kept. IMO, the only legitimate excuse for deleting палец ноги is if it is incorrect or never used. If the entry were "нос стопы" (foot nose), then I would say delete it, because "нос стопы" is incorrect and is never used to mean toe (even though "foot nose" makes more sense to my English ear than "leg finger"). —Stephen (Talk) 09:08, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- You can interpret it differently. I initiated the RFD but it doesn't mean that I'm against keeping it. It depends on the outcome of this discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:29, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I misread what you said, thinking it was an argument to keep the entry. My mistake. Mr. Granger (talk) 01:05, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep, outside of CFI, as a term denoting a concept for which English has a single word, even a monosyllanic one. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
Same as above. --WikiTiki89 13:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- See also 足の指 above. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep, outside of CFI, as a term denoting a concept for which English has a single word, even a monosyllanic one. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what the number of syllables in toe has anything to do with anything. --WikiTiki89 20:37, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
I think we need a template similar to {{translation only}} but for foreign language SoP translations of English idiomatic or non-SoP terms, which would add to "Category:(LANGUAGE) non-idiomatic back-translation targets" (by "back-translation" into English) or similar. Non-idiomatic translations of the English term "toe" is a good example. Online dictionaries confirm that there is demand for such terms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:05, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
{{translation only}}is useless here. The translation table on the English entry toe already gives the translations to foreign languages. There is no need for an entry to exist just because it is listed as an SOP translation somewhere. --WikiTiki89 22:08, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- I said "similar", not this template but a reverse of it. The fact that 足の指, палец ноги, deget de la picior, انگشت پا and others get created and exist in the online dictionaries show interest in such terms. The logic being - "an English term exists, why there is no word for it in language X?". A template would specifically say something like палец_ноги#Usage_notes, which would direct to more correct terms/alternatives and explain why this term is non-idiomatic. I know your opinion but others have expressed opposition and it seems like no consensus on deletion for this or any of 足の指, палец ноги, انگشت پا. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
SoP? See also 足の指, палец ноги, deget de la picior above. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:56, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
- Delete as being too useful to stupid English-natives who want to learn languages. What right have they to knowledge. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- I know how you feel. That's why the issue is highlighted in the above discussion. Foreign language terms like this should either be allowed for the benefit of English natives, even if they are considered SoP's by native speakers or we shouldn't waste time. See usage note at палец ноги. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Keep, outside of CFI, as a term denoting a concept for which English has a single word, even a monosyllanic one. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:30, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
- The RFD for 足の指, палец ноги, deget de la picior above and this one - انگشت پا - all meaning "toe" but considered SoP in corresponding languages. The question is whether we should have entries as a back translation target (into English). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:54, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- My answer is no. Delete. DCDuring TALK 17:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Kept, no consensus to delete either entry. bd2412 T 03:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)