Talk:Іосифъ

RFV discussion: May–July 2020

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Іосифъ

Labelled as "Pre-1990 spelling", there a few others, like наро́дъ (naród). Created by User:Kevlar67. I'm only aware that 1990 reform re-introduced letter ґ (g). ъ has been out of Ukrainian orthography for many decades. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:01, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Other terms to be verified are linked here Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:uk-pre-reform. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

"Pre-1990" is a bit imprecise, since this is really from an orthographic convention that was only popular until the 1890s, but the category was labelled that way so as to include all archaic spellings before the current standard was arrived at in 1990 (it could certainly be changed). The evidence for these particular usages comes from the book про во̂льни̂ землѣ (=про вільні землі) by Dr. w:Joseph Oleskiw, published in L'viv in 1895. Kevlar67 (talk) 15:06, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Kevlar67: I see, thanks for the response. Since the exact date is unknown, the above nouns can be simply labelled with {{lb|uk|archaic}}. You don't have to add a specific template, especially, if you don't know exactly what a particular reform included. The year 1990 is completely wrong here. If you look up Even the old "Харківський правопис" or "скрипниківка" (Kharkiv orthography or Skrypnykivka)) of 1928 (now considered classical), it didn't include the final "ъ". In fact, I think the removal of the final "ъ" probably coincided with the Russian reform of 1918. Most words in Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:uk-pre-reform may only be dated 19th century or older.

I suggest to rewrite the entries with {{lb|uk|archaic}} and get rid of {{uk-pre-reform}} until we know better. I'll take out {{rfv}}, the terms are attestable but labelled and dated incorrectly. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I agree with your proposal in spirit, but {{archaic}} is for old senses, not old spellings. Kevlar67 (talk) 18:48, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

You can use {{archaic spelling of}}, though. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kevlar67, Mahagaja: Sorry for the late reply. This sounds reasonable. I will need some help because these entries will permanently shout about missing inflections, etc. @Benwing2, could you add your tricks to Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:uk-pre-reform, please :)

I find Льво̂въ (Lʹvôv) interesting and odd. Did the accent represent і/о alternation or a stress? Львовъ (Lʹvov) is the pre-1918 reform Russian spelling of Львовъ (Lʹvov). How was it pronounced in Ukrainian in the nominative form? The modern Ukrainian Львів (Lʹviv) has this і/о alternation. For example, the genitive singular is Львова (Lʹvova). Compare also with the Polish letter ó, pronounced like a normal u but used in case where it alternates with o (ó/o alternation) or was historically "o" in Proto-Slavic. Compare Lwów in genitive singular is Lwowa --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:15, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I believe these are examples of Максимовичівка. In which case the letters with the extra diatrics are all pronounced as "i". see http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?linkpath=pages%5CM%5CA%5CMaksymovychivka.htm Kevlar67 (talk) 18:07, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kevlar67: This is interesting, thanks for finding this. I will add some notes later. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:17, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

• RFV-kept, as there does not seem to have been doubt about this spelling existed, but rather when it was in use. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)