Talk:κακομάζαλος

I can't help but think that the Hebrew etymology is correct, but the first source I found disagrees. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I found that one too. Greeks are notorious for thinking everything comes from Greek (haven't you seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding?), much like Jews think everything comes from Hebrew: like κακομάζαλος. --WikiTiki89 16:50, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I just got that book today, actually. It's a really great read. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Me too! Just got it Friday. I love it. --WikiTiki89 14:25, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• By the way, Judeo-Greek has an ISO code (yej), so we might as well use it on this entry, no? I haven't gotten to that chapter yet in the handbook, so I don't know how deserving it is of its own code (cf. the Judeo-French discussion I started in WT:RFM). —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:53, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

It would be better considered a dialect/ethnolect. Maybe we should make it into an etymology-only language? The bigger dilemma is whether or not to call it Ancient Greek or Modern Greek, since "the late Byzantine period" is before our cutoff, which is technically 1453 (the fall of Constantinople and official end of the Byzantine Empire), but this cutoff is linguistically meaningless and the language of the time was much more similar to today's Greek. --WikiTiki89 21:02, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Definitely modern; we already have terms marked as ==Ancient Greek== that are straight borrowings from Judeo-Aramaic and Hebrew. I like the etymology-only idea; do you want to start a formal discussion or just institute it? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:07, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't follow you're logic. Ancient Greek had a long time span, so it would still make sense for it to have borrowings from the same language from different periods. @ObsequiousNewt, JohnC5, I'm so meta even this acronym, Aperiarcam, Erutuon, Saltmarsh, Eipnvn: What do you think about this? --WikiTiki89 14:46, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge, Wikitiki89: Is Judaeo-Greek entirely pre-1453? If so, I'd stick to calling it Ancient Greek. Otherwise, we should call it Ancient or Modern depending on which form of Greek (Byzantine or Modern) it most closely resembles. And, of course, if it resembles either closely enough (cf. Judaeo-French, already mentioned by Μετά), Judaeo-Greek should certainly be an etymology-only language. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:06, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Judeo-Greek has existed since antiquity and still marginally exists, so it has definitely spanned both Ancient and Modern Greek. But a better question is specifically about this word, whether it should also have an Ancient Greek entry and/or whether we should say it was formed in Ancient Greek or Modern Greek. --WikiTiki89 15:11, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: What's its date of first attestation? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:35, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The source I linked to in my first post above says it "is attested in Christian Greek sources from the late Byzantine period (see, e.g., Pochert 1991: 145, line 3), and is still known in modern (non-Jewish) greek, at least in some areas (e.g., Cyprus)." The entry in the bibliography for "Pochert 1991" is: "Pochert, Cornelia. 1991. Die Reimbildung in der spät-post-byzantinischen Volksliteratur. Cologne: Romiosini." I haven't done any further research yet. --WikiTiki89 15:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: If we consider Judaeo-Greek to be a mere dialect of Ancient Greek and, later, Modern Greek, it surely therefore matters what the date of first attestation is in any source, Christian, Jewish, or whatever. Is it attested earlier in Judaeo-Greek, or is it first attested in those late Byzantine Christian sources? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:55, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

What I just quoted you is all I know. --WikiTiki89 15:56, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: OK. Well, just going on that, I would say that both an Ancient Greek entry and a Modern Greek entry are warranted. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 11:58, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: How do we accent Ancient Greek words from later periods, when the actual pitch accent no longer existed? --WikiTiki89 14:42, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: Well, in the case of this word, the Ancient Greek would have an oxia where the Modern Greek has a tonos; because of their equivalence in Unicode, the entries would both exist at this spelling. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:50, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: Thanks. I just added the Ancient Greek entry. Could you perhaps put in the appropriate headword template and declension (also for Modern Greek, if you can)? --WikiTiki89 14:59, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: I would, but which templates I'd add (for Ancient Greek) would depend on whether the nominative singular feminine form were κακομαζάλη (kakomazálē) or κακομάζαλος (kakomázalos) like the masculine. Do you know which it is? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: I don't know, but I had assumed that there is a "default" pattern used for most new words and borrowings. Is that not the case? --WikiTiki89 15:25, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Wikitiki89: If there is a default pattern, I don't know it. Anyway, the Ancient Greek should get {{grc-adj-1&2|κακομαζάλη|κακομάζαλον}} and {{grc-adecl|κακομάζαλος|κακομαζάλη}} or {{grc-adj-1&2|κακομάζαλον}} and {{grc-adecl|κακομάζαλος|κακομάζαλον}}, whereas the Modern Greek should get (I think) {{el-adj|f=κακομάζαλη|n=κακομάζαλο}} and {{el-decl-adj|dec=ος-η-ο|stem=κακομάζαλ}} or {{el-adj|f=κακομάζαλος|n=κακομάζαλο}} and {{el-decl-adj|dec=ος-ος-ο|stem=κακομάζαλ|nopio=1}}. Without more information, however, I don't know which of those are right. @ObsequiousNewt, JohnC5, Aperiarcam, Erutuon, Saltmarsh, Eipnvn: might be able to help further. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:43, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Does anyone know of a Yevanic dictionary? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 16:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The word isn't in my 3 dictionaries - is it attested in Modern Greek? @Xoristzatziki: Is it Koine?   — Saltmarsh^{συζήτηση-talk} 04:52, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

In Modern Greek, it is regional slang; it's in this online Cypriot slang dictionary. It's not Koine, since like I said, it "is attested in Christian Greek sources from the late Byzantine period". --WikiTiki89 14:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Metaknowledge, Wikitiki89, ObsequiousNewt, Saltmarsh: Per Rossyxan’s addition of declension information for the Modern Greek word, I added analogous declension information for its Ancient Greek etymon. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:55, 27 July 2016 (UTC)