Reconstruction talk:Proto-Iranian/θanǰáyati

invalid informations

This page has invalid information from unreliable sources. The verb سنجیدن (sanjidan) is from Middle Persian snc- (sanǰ-), from Proto-Indo-European *ḱenk- (“to waver, be in suspense”). Proto Iranian "θ" would never become "s" except in loanwords from Avestan.(Irman (talk) 11:24, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

False: Old Persian θ develops to Middle Persian s-,-h- regardless of if it goes back to Proto-Iranian *θ- or *c-. See most recently Kümmel, Entwicklung von auslautendem *θ- im Persichen. --Tropylium (talk) 13:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

I don't know german but I doubt Kummel knows Persian better than me. Could you bring me some example from those words with "s" in Persian which derived from proto iranian "θ"? As I know only hanjidan could be original persian and all north Iranians are borrowings from Persian which all of them are considered untill now Persian dialects by many because heavily influenced in words from Persian. The verb "sanjidan" original meaning is not "to weigh" although it recorded in Middle Persian only in this meaning but this occured because of lack of much evidence for this word. in persian literary meaning "to ponder , to evaluate , to compare" was existed as long as the meaning "to weigh" so one cannot get result these meanings are newer than the Middle Iranian. (Irman (talk) 13:45, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

By the way the verb "tanzidan" doesn't exit in Shirazi with this meaning and this is an apparant falsification. (Irman (talk) 13:53, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

For reconstructions, reliable sources are much more important than native speaker knowledge. Kummel undoubtedly knows more about Proto-Iranian that anyone in this discussion, so using him as a reference makes sense. Again, *ḱenk- is wrong because the final *k could never lead to Persian j. The root means "to waver, doubt" not "*to ponder" like you are suggesting. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 15:45, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Victar already gave an example: PIr *θaxtah > MP saxt. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 16:51, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

You can not say the final *k could never lead to Persian j because in Persian the sound "g" and "j" could interchange in derivations from roots. But what is important here is the initial θ could never lead to s in original persian words except in words borrowed from Avestan through religious texts of Avesta which almost all of them are obsolete now. This verb has not been borrowed from Avestan. Another thing is its meaning is completely different from hanjidan ( to draw ) which is original Persian descendant of θanǰáyati. Notice that sanjidan means to reflect, to compare, to evaluate, to weigh and doesn't have direct relation to Proto Iranian θanǰáyati but completely similar to cognate Sanskrit śaṅkate. (Irman (talk) 16:59, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

What is his source? a star cornered word could not be proof for roots of any word! maybe someone made it by himself!(Irman (talk) 17:02, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

We don't need parallels of PIr. *θ to Middle/Modern Persian s specifically: it suffices to show that (1) Old Persian θ, as actually attested, continues as later Persian s (see examples such as *ĉánhati, *ĉatám, *ĉarHád-), and (2) OP θ can be from either PIr. *c or *θ. Which is to say, original *θ- could not have possibly gotten "out of the way" of the *c > θ > s development. --Tropylium (talk) 22:35, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

I repeat there is no such word in Shirazi accent with this meaning! This is absolutly a falsification!(Irman (talk) 17:10, 25 February 2018 (UTC))

Perhaps not any longer today; it's sourced from a paper from 1926 after all. --Tropylium (talk) 22:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

And again, as Tropylium says, it doesn't even matter because it is not needed in reconstructing the etymology. --Victar (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

This is a example of sound law table for iranian languages:

      Proto Iranian         Avestan       Old Persian      Middle Persian      Parthian

           *θ                  θ               h                h                  h
           
           *θr                 θr              s                s                  hr

As you see there you can find out that θr is an exception in this sound law. θ before vowels and other consonants always lead to h in Persian.(Irman (talk) 06:40, 26 February 2018 (UTC))

@Irman, I'm sorry, but your information is incorrect. You can find the morphology of PIE to Old Persian here, complete with sources. --Victar (talk) 07:19, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

If you read Kümmel's paper, it has been a point of dispute in the past if words with PIr. *θ- > OP θ- > MP s- are native and words with *θ- >> MP h- are loans from Parthian; or perhaps h- is native and s- are loans from some other Iranian language. However I gather it has been meanwhile generally acknowledged that PIr. *c- regularly results in OP θ- and MP s-. Here the discussion has been whether there is a direct shift from OP to MP, or if MP actually continues an old Iranian dialect that was closely related to but not actually identical to Old Persian. But in both cases we have evidence for OP θ- > MP s-, and so this should have priority as the native development. So Irman is not making this up — they're just behind times on the research. --Tropylium (talk) 14:17, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Tropylium though OP θ- > MP s-/OP θ- > MP h- has been disputed in the past, PIr. *θ- > OP θ- has not. --Victar (talk) 14:54, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Irman: Again the Sanskrit does not fit with the Persian. If you're going to invoke your native speaker knowledge I can do the same, since I speak Hindi natively. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 16:09, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Per "An etymological dictionary of Middle Persian (Pahlavi) Verbs" (written by Y. Mansouri, PH.D) both سنجیدن and آهنجیدن are from PIr. *θ/sang-.--Calak (talk) 17:16, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

*t_N > *tʰ_N

@Tropylium, I noticed you wrote in the change log "aspiration throwback *T-Dh > *Th-D is regular before nasals". Do you have any other examples of this? --Victar (talk) 18:27, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

I've seen Kümmel refer to this indirectly, I'm not sure if there is a published detailed defense anywhere (perhaps in his forthcoming PII grammar). Aside from this, he also mentions *kumbʰa- > *xumba- (“pot”) in passing in his "Einführung ins Altiranische" course material (available online). Grassmann's Law would ensure that a hypothetical distinction between *Tʰ-NDʰ and *T-NDʰ is not going to be visible in Indic in any case. --Tropylium (talk) 18:49, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

@Tropylium, I see, so the theory is that in PII switched the aspiration of two plosives separated by a nasal, P(V)NPʰ > Pʰ(V)NP: PII *θanǰ- /tanɟʰ/ > *tʰanǰ- /tʰaɟ/ > PIr. *θanǰ- /θandz/, PIA *tʰanȷ́- /tʰanʑ/. What a shame we don't have a Sanskrit form. --Victar (talk) 00:04, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Blerg, PIE *stembʰH- > Av. stab-, Skt. stabh-; PIE *ǵembʰ- > Av. zəmb-, Skt. jambh-. --Victar (talk) 00:31, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

He gives it as an Iranian development preceding the general loss of voiced aspiration, not as common II (cf. Sanskrit kumbha- 'pot'). This probably also doesn't apply to consonant clusters, since Iranian doesn't allow **/sTʰ-/ anyway --Tropylium (talk) 14:13, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

tæjyn

@Victar where did you get Ossetian tæjyn? I don't find anything like that. --Vahag (talk) 16:12, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan, it looks like a typo on my part and is actually tæʒyn. Can't recall the source. --Victar (talk) 17:05, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

tæʒyn means "to drip, run" and is from a different root. The Ossetian descendants of *θanǰ- are attested only with different preverbs. I am going to remove the Ossetian descendant unless you have a source for it. --Vahag (talk) 17:21, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Kurdish sangāndin

@Victar Kurdish sangāndin is a Verbal noun from Kurdish sang means "weight" (check ku:seng) (Kurdish sangīn and Persian سنگین "weighty, heavy" are also from this word). -āndin is a suffix makes verb from nouns. Even if we reject this etymology, Kurdish sangāndin can't be from MP/NP directly because there is no evidence for MP/NP ǰ → Kurdish g.--Calak (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

@Calak: Fair enough. Moved to new *Haĉangáh entry. --Victar (talk) 01:11, 27 June 2018 (UTC)