Reconstruction talk:Proto-Germanic/swinkaną

RFV discussion: April–October 2024

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

---

Proto-Germanic *swinkaną, Proto-West Germanic *swinkan (“to work”)

All West-Germanic terms apart from the English appear to be made up. I can't find them anywhere. The same for the meaning "to swing". Its relationship to *swinganą (“to swing”) is debatable. According to the OED the Old Norse is borrowed from Old English. Nonetheless the word has Proto-Germanic pedigree on the basis of ablaut of its inflected forms and related terms. @Sokkjo. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 17:49, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I've added definitions to the entries links on PWG *swinkan. @DerRudymeister, I can't find any source for the OHG. The Dutch and Frisian do seem to point to an original PG iterative *swink-nā́-ti ~ *swing-un-ánti (“to sway, swing”), so PWG *swinkan (“to swing around”) should exist, but where that puts Old English swincan (“to toil, labor”) and Middle Low German swinken (“to pour out, spill”), I don't know. -- Sokkjō 19:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I also question the definition “to work” for Old Norse svinka, which, from the examples, seems to be more inline with Swedish svinka (“to swerve, evade, be untrustworthy”). -- Sokkjō 20:53, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Tags @Mårtensås, Mnemosientje. -- Sokkjō 03:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. You use Cleasby/Vigfusson for Old Norse right? The meaning they give "to stagger" strangely doesn't fit the citation they give: ok láta frétta þat sem hertogi Girarð hefir svinkat. I think that means "and to report what Duke Gerard has laboured at," which also corresponds to the meaning given by De Vries and Magnússon. svinka(st) "to become drunk" is attested much later from the 18th century and is probably borrowed from Danish/Low German.

Did you find a source which ties all of these together? I think we should keep the weak iterative "to sway" (despite sporadic strong forms) separate from the strong "to labour". —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 10:33, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sokkjo Old Norse svinkandi ‘swink-er; labourer’, which is clearly an nd-stem derived from svinka, is securely attested in Norwegian Runic inscription N A104[1]. It is pretty obscure, so I understand why you did not find it. ᛙᛆᚱᛐᛁᚿᛌᛆᛌ ᛭ Proto-Norsing ᛭ Ask me anything 15:44, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Correct, the defintion “to stagger” is taken from Cleasby-Vigfusson. The meaning “to labor” doesn't seem to fix in context with the following line, “at þaðan af versni honum í hug heldr en batni”, or “from then on his mind got worse rather than better”. That seems more inline with “to get drunk”, actually. What is the Hieatt (1975) translation of that passage?

Do we really know what “fjón svinkanda” is meant by in that prose? Old Norse svinkandi could mean “drunkard”. -- Sokkjō 05:08, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

As a person who saw this inscription physically, i may assure that the original spelling is ᚠᛁᚮᚿᛌᚠᛁᚿᚴᛆᛏᛆ (fionsfinkata). Anyway, the researchers of this incription tend to be agree that it means fjon svinkanda. What "svinkanda" means, am not sure tho, but we have many of this kind of inscriptions, so we can make parrallells i guess. Tollef Salemann (talk) 05:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It is part of a rebus, so fjonsfinkata suppose to be a description of a rune based on its name. In this case, the secret rune is surely Ur, which means rain (at least in this context). Fjón is hate (see Norse dictionary), so svinka(n)da (genitive case right?) is somebody who hates rain. So it is logically to assume that svinkandi is a outside worker, like a farmer (or even me, because im working today in rain as well). So maybe its not right, but all the people who studied this inscription agree about it. Tollef Salemann (talk) 10:45, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

It can not be drunkard, because it gives no sense in the context of the rebus. Some drunkards may hate rain, but y’know what i mean. Tollef Salemann (talk) 19:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

I unfortunately don't have access to her translation. I don't find this easy to read, but I think the section roughly translates: "The battle begins again. And as god almighty wants to hinder Jamund's harming of his flock, he also wants to obstruct his berserkergang for a while and let it be heard what Duke Gerard has laboured at, that his [Jamund's] state of mind is worsened from it and not improved." The context as far as I can tell is that the Christians are on a roll but it hasn't gotten through to Jamund yet because the battlefield is so huge and chaotic. A Heathen knight then comes to Jamund and starts to tell him all the misfortune their side are suffering. Importantly, svinkat is transitive here, þat sem is the object. I don't think "to sway" can be made to make sense. Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Caoimhin ceallach, Sokkjo I didn't make up the West Germanic forms. I used some Dutch sources. For example the Dutch historical dictionary has the following entry on zwinken which literely states: Transitive and intransitive and attested as a weak and strong verb. Originally a strong verb (from indo european *s[uibreveb]ĕ- with a -ng extension) next to which the causative zwenken is formed, alternatively a secondary form of zwenken with ĭ < ĕ next to nasal + consonant. Dated, but stil used dialectaly.

The West Frisian dictionary also has the following entry on zwinke

The Dutch etymology database has a number of entries under zwenken. Among which J. de Vries (1971) states the following about the zwenken: It's likely a causative verb to the strong verb in Zaans zwinken, Old High German swinkan ‘to swayʼ, Old English swincan ‘to toilʼ.--DerRudymeister (talk) 18:43, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for those sources. I shouldn't have let it sound like I was accusing you of making stuff up. It's just that I wasn't finding any of those forms in the reference works I consulted. I still don't think words meaning "to work" and those meaning "to swing" should be combined. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:12, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

@Caoimhin ceallach: I went ahead and separated Proto-Germanic *swinkaną for “toil, labor”, and Proto-West Germanic *swinkan for “to swing, sway”. -- Sokkjō 03:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

RFV-resolved. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)