Reconstruction talk:Proto-Germanic/dungijǭ

*dungō

@Sokkjo My next question was going to be <<Does the "bower" sense follow a different path from *dʰengʰ-, bypassing the "dung/manure" step altogether. I've always had an issue with "bower" being derived directly from "dunghill"...but I can see it coming from something meaning "covering, seclusion, protection" instead. Leasnam (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sokkjo How do you feel about the "bower/apartment" sense deriving instead from Proto-Germanic *dungz (“cellar”) + -jǭ ? Leasnam (talk) 03:04, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Yeah, I can certainly see the argument for a merger of two terms here. -- Sokkjō 03:14, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sokkjo:, ok, Thanks ! Let me work on it. I'll probably split the entry into 2 etymologies :] Leasnam (talk) 03:19, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

As stated in the edit summary (comment) I simply updated the etymology verbiage to mention each sense separately. Leasnam (talk) 03:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: I think it should be split into two separate etymologies. I don't know if this has been proposed, but PG *dungō could be from PIE *dʰn̥ǵʰ-, metathesized and leveled from *dʰéǵʰm̥- ~ *dʰǵʰm- (“earth”), cognate with Sanskrit क्षम् (kṣam, “ground, earth”), with the common semantic change of “dirt” to “excrement”. -- Sokkjō 04:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, that's interesting. --Okay, I'll split it in the am, 'tis late and I'm ready for some Zzz :] Leasnam (talk) 04:26, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sokkjo, After further research, I'm finding that Old Norse dyngja means only "bower" and (in combination) "heap, pile" - not "heap or pile of dung" but only "heap, pile (of anything)" (cf. ǫskudyngja = "pile of ashes" - no reference to 'dung'). Likewise, Danish dynge simply means "pile, heap, mound" and also Faroese dyngja means "heap, pile, multitude, crowd". No hint of 'manure'. Only when combined with mykja does it mean "pile of muck/dung" as in Old Norse *mykidyngja (“dung + pile”) whence our word midden. Old Swedish is the only language that develops the sense of "dung-pile" alongside "pile" (perhaps as a shortening of *mykidyngja ?). This means that the original sense of Proto-Germanic *dungijǭ may have simply meant "pile, mound" (possibly "fortification, structure") without reference to 'manure'. Your thoughts ? Leasnam (talk) 17:28, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: *dungō (“dirt, dung”) ⇒ *dungijǭ (“dirt pile, dung pile”)? -- Sokkjō 19:39, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Sokkjo: Yes, and with a tiny tweak *dungō (“earth”) ⇒ *dungijǭ (“mound”); or perhaps *dung- (“cover; to cover”) ⇒ *dungijǭ (“safe place, shelter, den”) ? Leasnam (talk) 20:06, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam, again, I think these two terms need to be explicitly separated from one another. -- Sokkjō 00:04, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Roger that. I started to split them, but I'll need to separate them first at PWG and Old Norse. Leasnam (talk) 12:58, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: Proto-Germanic *dungōną should be split as well. -- Sokkjō 05:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I've moved Dutch donk (“hill”) to *dungijā and changed it's definition to include “hill”, and merged it back to a single noun as the Romance borrowings mean a fortified tower. I can't help but notice the parallels to *bergaz (“hill”) ~ *burgz (“stronghold”) (as well as burrow). -- Sokkjō 07:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take a look at *dungōną. I agree about the parallel. They both seem to connect "stronghold/high place" with a sense of "seclusion", an animal's burrow being it's stronghold. Leasnam (talk) 17:01, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Leasnam: I see you added *dungil to *dung. This is probably overthinking, but it does look to be cognate with Ancient Greek χθαμαλός (khthamalós, “low, sunken, flat”), and Latin humilis (“low, shallow”) (PS *zemľà?), from PIE *dʰǵʰm-él ~ *dʰǵʰm̥-lés. -- Sokkjō 16:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)