Reconstruction talk:Old Dutch/buti

@Rua, do you think the Middle Low German and Old Norse forms are borrowings, or native inheritances from a PG form? --{{victar|talk}} 08:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

It's very hard to say, but at least for Old Norse the gender differs, which may be evidence. —Rua (mew) 08:59, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Move from PWG

@Mahagaja, I have to again disagree with this page being moved to Old Dutch. You can't have the entry at Old Dutch but still borrowed from Gaulish -- the timeline doesn't work, and the term as an intra-Dutch construction to an unattested verb seems extremely unlikely. --{{victar|talk}} 04:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Victar: It's at Old Dutch because that's the latest possible stage. Reconstructing it for Old Dutch doesn't imply it couldn't have been borrowed from Gaulish at an earlier stage, just that there's no evidence it existed in any other branch of West Germanic. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:29, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja, if it could "have been borrowed from Gaulish at an earlier stage", that would have been PWG. CAT:Old Dutch terms borrowed from Gaulish should not exit. --{{victar|talk}} 17:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Victar: Sure, but moving this to RC:Proto-West-Germanic/buti would introduce a reconstruction page with only one descendant, something that is generally discouraged. As for CAT:Old Dutch terms borrowed from Gaulish, changing {{bor}} to {{der}} is the easy way to fix that. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:45, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

We have no policy with PWG that doesn't allow for single descendant entries, so using that as an argument is a red herring.

No, the actual fix would be to make an intermediate step of Proto-West Germanic *būti, which reintroduces the PWG reconstruction.

I also haven't seen any explanation of how Vulgar Latin *būtīnus, whence OF butin, would have been borrowed from Old Dutch, which would also mean a CAT:Vulgar Latin terms borrowed from Old Dutch, another category which shouldn't exist. --{{victar|talk}} 18:05, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja, thoughts? --{{victar|talk}} 03:00, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

I still say single-descendant reconstructions are generally discouraged, even if there's no official policy against them. I think it would be better to keep this at Old Dutch and have the etymology say {{unc|odt}}; possibly from {{der|odt|frk||*būti}}, from {{der|odt|cel-gau|*boudi}}, and so on. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Better why, so we don't have a PWG entry with a single descendant? --{{victar|talk}} 06:37, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. And as for Old French butin, does it have to have gone through VL at all? Can't it have been borrowed directly from Old Dutch? —Mahāgaja · talk 07:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

RFD discussion: March 2020–May 2024

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/būti

Only has reflexes in one descendant, and an uncertain borrowing. This could easily have been formed within the separate history of Dutch. —Rua (mew) 10:52, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Keep: The etymology is so widely circulated that even if it is wrong, which is hard to say (though I do prefer a direct Gaulish etymology for the Latin), it should just have an entry anyhow. --{{victar|talk}} 19:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

But should that be a Proto-West Germanic entry? The term is literally has only one descendant, that's not enough evidence to claim it's of PWG date. —Rua (mew) 20:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's mostly reconstructed as PG, so PWG is even safer, no? --{{victar|talk}} 20:46, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

A term with only a Dutch descendant (which is doubtful, as Etymologiebank says the term is Low German in origin) can't even be reconstructed for PWG, let alone PG. —Rua (mew) 10:38, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

And others the opposite, and others still both inherited. --{{victar|talk}} 20:10, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Related to this a Frankish label could be handy for PWG with only Dutch and Latin descendants. --{{victar|talk}} 20:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

After 4 years with no discussion, I've been bold and moved it to RC:Old Dutch/buti, which of course does not exclude the possibility that the term was present earlier. I've kept the redirect from PWG in case others expect to find it labeled as such. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:15, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

@Mahagaja, but VL would have borrowed it from Frankish, not Old Dutch. -- Sokkjō 04:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)