Wiktionary talk:Greek verb inflection-table templates

Inflection tables for modern Greek verbs

I would like to populate modern Greek verbs with conjugation tables and to help me do this I would prefer to change their templates. Some 5 years ago 13 templates were created (based I think on those in Βικιλεξικό) - since when less than a dozen Greek verbs have been given a conjugation section.

I have been working on a new table form which (to me anyway) has a more meaningful layout; it also has named arguments, making it easier to use and follows the style of other Greek inflection templates. Please compare the old (αγαπώ) with the new (δένω) and say if you object to me continuing down this road. — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 06:47, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the purpose of conjugation tables is to display the individual word forms. So I'm not sure if it is such a good idea to include all the compound tenses too. I would prefer it if they were put in a separate table so that they don't clutter up the main one. On the other hand I think the imperative forms belong in the main table. I'm not sure about the subjunctive, it looks like it's identical to the indicative. Are there any verbs where they differ? —CodeCat 14:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

The first group of templates (like the one in αγαπώ) reflect the traditional way of conjugating verbs we can find in Greek school grammar books, so these templates are more useful to Greek native speakers. Newer grammar books written by Holton, Mackridge etc tend to revise the traditional terminology. I suppose that the new templates by Saltmarsh are adapted to this newer perspective. I also think that CodeCat is right when saying that the present subjunctive is not necessary whereas the imperative forms, the non-finite and the present participle are. About the compound tenses I am not sure. Maybe the 1st sg of each one and a link to an appendix page would be enough. --flyax (talk) 22:27, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments - as Flyax says I was taking a lead from Holton et al, I felt this layout might show the verb stem patterns better to native English speakers. I have rewritten and simplified the table - and changed the layout to give a landscape format. It can be seen at λύνω (compound forms to follow) - please do comment! — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 07:32, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

The two future tenses could be treated like the perfect tense or the subjunctives but never mind. You've done a good work. --flyax (talk) 18:58, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes - but most grammars give the full form :). — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 15:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

The text above was moved from the Wiktionary:Beer parlour — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 04:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Imperative column headings

As I see it (I am not a native English speaker) the only... "objection" I have is about the Imperative which I think it should follow the "naming" of the first forms. Either both should be "perfective" and "imperfective" or both "Continuous" and "Simple". --Xoristzatziki (talk) 21:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing the inconsistency (and my typo elsewhere!) - changed — Saltmarsh^{απάντηση} 06:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

"Imperative with present perfect forms" imported

We need authoritative information on whether the present perfect imperatives (έχε δέσει) and (έχε δεμένος) are in use for any verbs.

• Triantafyllidis (Νέοελληνική Γραμματική, 2006, pp314) says that the imperative has present (γράφε), aorist (γράψε) and very rarely past perfect (έχε γραμμένο).
• The dictionary of the Manolis Triantafyllidis Foundation [1] does not show any present perfect forms for the imperative.
• From a series of notes on grammar produced as part of a program at the Department of Communication and Media Studies at the National and Kapodistrian University of Athens [2], the following implies that these forms are not in use:

Finally, that the present perfect and past perfect don't form imperatives cannot be attributed to their semantic charactertistics -- given that their uses with ας and να in main clauses corresponds more or less to uses of the imperative...

• In the meantime one can find references on the web to both έχε λύσει and έχε λυμένος (for example) as acceptable forms in grammatical tables, some tables having just one or just the other.

--ArielGlenn 07:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

From "Template talk:el-conj-'δροσίζω'" Saltmarsh (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

About perfect imperative

Modern Greek, like the old times, has perfect imperative, like “έχε πλύνει μέχρι αύριο”. IMO this one should be added in the module. I’m not exert though. Yoshiciv (talk) 08:05, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello Yoshiciv. Nice to see you again. Yes, there is: 'έχε πλυμένο μέχρι αύριο' (έχε = imperative 2nd.sing of "have" + accusative of passive perfect participle). Because it is a periphrasis it is usually omitted even in school grammar books. You may also check the discussion above. Saltmarsh is restructuring the conjugation tables in a similar economical way. There are other omissions too. But it is great that you reminded: there is a list of what is omitted and your observation will be added too. sarri.greek (talk) 08:26, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply! And nice to see you again too.

However, I can’t help but oppose your opinion as these reasons: I mean, seems like the obsoleted or archaism forms are to be omitted in new tables. However, perfect imperative is still in use. And it still has productivity in syntax. Though it's periphrastic in conjugation I don’t think the perfect imperative is recongnized as peripheral one unlike the other two. Then it wonldn’t be so strange to think the three forms should be treated equally. So I’d like suggest not to omit it. --Yoshiciv (talk) 16:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)