Wiktionary talk:About Ukrainian

Changing the way у-/в- variation is notated in Ukrainian entries

(Notifying Atitarev, Benwing2, Underfell Flowey, Voltaigne, ZomBear): Hi, when trying to add an etymology to ущент/вщент, I stumbled over the fact that both entries existed with duplicated definitions and request for etymology, with only a plain "alternate form" link from one to the other. I know that, on many other such pages, Template:U:uk:у-в is used to add a bit under Usage Notes about why there are two forms, but it feels fairly clumsy. When I mentioned this on Discord, Fenakhay suggested a labeled alt form (linking to a subsection on this page). The current state of ущент (uščent) and вщент (vščent) would be what it would look like (though the link doesn't go anywhere yet). Is that something people would be fine with applying throughout? PhoenicianLetters (talk) 01:32, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I like the idea of linking to a subsection on this page, as this would allow for a fuller description of the у-/в- variation in accordance with Українська національна комісія з питань правопису (22 May 2019) Український правопис 2019 року [Ukrainian orthography of 2019]‎^[1] (in Ukrainian), Kyiv: Naukova Dumka, →ISBN, § 23, page 25. The usage note currently generated by {{U:uk:у-в}} simply states that у- is used after consonants or at the beginning of a clause and в- after vowels, but according to the Український правопис it's not so simple—there are instances when у- occurs after vowels (see § 23(1.5) page 26) and в- after consonants or at the beginning of a clause (see § 23(1.2) note 1, page 25, and § 23(2.2-3) page 27).

If we go for the label approach proposed here, we should be guided by {{R:uk:SUM-20}} and {{R:uk:SUM-11}} as regards which of the two entries should be the primary one (впуска́ти/упуска́ти is an example where primary status differs depending on etymology/meaning), unless we make an editorial judgement that there's an overriding reason not to (for instance, the dictionaries give вважа́ти (vvažáty) as a variant of уважа́ти (uvažáty), but вважа́ти is the much more common variant according to the corpus frequency counts at Горох so would probably be the entry that users are most interested in looking up. Voltaigne (talk) 06:10, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me.

Scrolling down in the orthography rules reminds me that і and й might need a similar setup, to keep things consistent. At least that one will affect a smaller number of words. Could we use the same label for both? There are minor differences in the rules regarding them, but they are very much in the same vein, after all. PhoenicianLetters (talk) 13:02, 5 October 2024 (UTC)