Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/May

How do I properly make this pronunciation use the IPA template?

I see an anon added pronunciation at gota#Lombard but they just put it as raw text...I tried using {{IPA}} but it gives some errors about invalid characters. Any help would be much appreciated. User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 14:34, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Done. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translation to Dutch

Hey, there are multiple problems with the automatic translation to Dutch of the English text and explanation on Wiktionary. Is there a possibility to ameliorate the translation?

One of the problems is the unnecessary changing (by wrong translation) of a table, for instance with a table of inflection of a Latin word.

A table of inflection of a Latin word should be the same in English and in Dutch and in all languages.

Gr. SumMus235711 — This unsigned comment was added by SumMus235711 (talk • contribs) at 11:59, 4 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

We don't have any automatic translation at Wiktionary, to the best of my knowledge. Can you give an example (with a link) of what you're talking about? —Mahāgaja · talk 12:02, 4 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Problem with `{{pt-IPA}}` for repto#Portuguese

I tried simply using {{pt-IPA}} but I get a Lua error. Can any Portuguese speakers out there figure out what's wrong? User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 15:09, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You have to specify whether the e is open é (/ɛ/) or close ê (/e/. —Mahāgaja · talk 15:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is great confirmation of Benwing's preference that the IPA templates should avoid defaults... someone who doesn't know Portuguese adding IPA to a Portuguese entry on the assumption that the default output will be good. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:33, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Middle Chinese and Old Chinese data

Hello! I’m planning to contribute with hanzi (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese) data for Wiktionary soon. I’ve been wondering: how are the MC and OC reconstructions being stored? I was unable to find any place explicitly defining, say, initials and finals for MC (and actually storing the fanqie), and yet turning “mc=y” on in the zh-pron table gets them from somewhere. As there are a lot of characters without articles currently (and for which I intend to create ones), what do I edit to get a MC and OC for the corresponding character? Mr-ridgeway (talk) 15:15, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr-ridgeway As mentioned on Twitter by others, it's at Module:zh/data/ltc-pron (廣韻) + Module:zh/data/och-pron-ZS (鄭張) + Module:zh/data/och-pron-BS (Baxter–Sagart). —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Notify guests

How do we alert guests? e.g. when answering to a question at a Talkpage. Are they being notified? What do we write?

[[Special:Contributions/217.000.000.00|217.000.000.00]]
[[User:217.000.000.00|217.000.000.00]]
{{ping|217.000.000.00}}

Thank you. — This unsigned comment was added by Sarri.greek (talk • contribs) at 01:58, 10 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

You can't ping IPs. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:31, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Pali sound clips with Mon pronunciation

We've been receiving some Pali sound clips from @咽頭べさ (a.k.a. Intobesa) and I'm struggling with integrating them. I've decided they belong on the Latin script Pali page matching their forms (the form he selects for nouns is generally the nominative singular, not the bare stem), but I'm having difficulty with the phonology link. --RichardW57m (talk) On page sarīraṃ, I've ended up with

{{audio-IPA|pi|သရဳရံ body.ogg|[saˀ rɔe yɔŋ]|dial=Mon Pali}} (See [[w:Mon language#Phonology|Mon phonology]] for IPA key.)

because tagging the link as being in Pali generates a link to the Wikipedia page for Pali (though it needs a redirect en route). If I tagged the link with 'mnw', it would reach a barely adequate section on Mon phonology, but the page would then be categorised as a 'Mon term with audio links'. (I think this word, sarīraṃ, exhibits register spreading - the /s/ also modifies the vowel of the next syllable.)

Is there a reasonable better way of reaching an IPA key? One possible solution is to use the w:Pali phonology page to redirect to the vernacular phonologies underpinning local pronunciations of Pali, but that needs work and, besides, I don't know what Bengali Pali sounds like. Is Shan Pali tonal? --RichardW57m (talk) 13:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Am I correct in thinking that I am on my own in connecting the category 'Terms with audio pronunciation in Mon Pali dialect' to the other Pali categories? --RichardW57m (talk) 13:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm putting the pronunciations on the main (i.e. Latin) entry because Lao pronunciations will apply both to Lao script and Tai Tham script writings, and it seems that Pali text in any script may be read out with an attempt at an early Indian pronunciation. (Is someone going to have to write a section on the pronunciation of Pali with a Californian accent?) --RichardW57m (talk) 13:02, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello@RichardW57m:, There are nearly 600,000 dialects of Pali in the world, when I travel to 28 countries, I learn a lot of differences in the Pali pronunciation they read. To resolve Pali pronunciation differences, Pali alphabet inconsistency literary scholars around BC 1233 divided it into Burmese Pali language,

Shan Pali language, Thai Pali language, Chinese Pali language, Bengail Pali language, Hindi Pali language and Mon Pali language.

See sample letters in Bagan era AD 1113 on Myazedi Pagoda 4 languages Ancient letters.

,Mon, Burmese, Pyu Pali language letters AD 500 to 600 in ancient times, the Mon people used the Pali language as their mother tongue today, with the advent of modern youth learning the Pali language has become less common, I have been researching the Pali language for 26 years. The Pali language is used in many different languages, if you want to learn Pali language, what Pali language do you want to learn? you need to think for yourself. You need to be able to choose the Pali language you want to study in the United States, Buddhist English is the language of the Pali language, so it has Fri been renamed the English Pali language, but only a minority.--Music writer Dr.Intobesa of Japanese idol NMB48 and BNK48. (talk) 17:16, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing two language families

Hello, I'm long termed Wikipedian, but was never aktive here. So I'm sorry, if I make mistakes. Is it possible making lists comparing two language families, f.e. amerind and paleosiberian languages - and as I see, most glosses here english, can I add german glosses too? (I'm german.) Best :) --Jucos (talk) 15:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That would not be appropriate for Wiktionary. Also, note that neither Amerind nor Paleosiberian is a real language family. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:24, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are here some rules, I could read more into, to learn about, what is appropriate? --Jucos (talk) 16:38, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps WT:WFW would be helpful for you. Also, given the level of your English, you would likely be more comfortable at German Wiktionary. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:01, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I didn't know, that there is a german language version too. So every appendix can exist in every version? --Jucos (talk) 17:19, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Jucos: You should first ask at de:Wiktionary:Fragen zum Wiktionary whether your proposed project is acceptable there. Each language community has its own rules and customs, so it's best to ask around and get a feel for a wiki before you start in on a big project. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm active Wikipedian since 2005, I know how a Wiki works, thank you very much (especially as a woman in Wikipedia, I've seen it all ^^) - but just my2cents: I don't think, I'm the first with problems with orientation in this project, the direction inside here is not very clear, a lot of lists and Appendices have not the best quality. Adventures translation-mixes from Language X to english, german and spanish... words who are totally wrong translated or not existing. As hungarian native I looked "of course" to finno-ugric first and it was "interesting". By the way - I KNOW that amerind and paleosiberian languages are NO language families! But I was writing parallel something in hungarian and german and translated something from Quechua into Kabyl - (something I do not recommend, if you are cooking same time and writing requests on Wiktionary), but I didn't care first, because it was not the core of my request - and to close this request: If somebody cannot make first small steps and asking simple stupid questions without tossed out, who is aktive Wikipedian since 16 years, how must it be for somebody who is a totally newbie? --Jucos (talk) 17:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lua errors on entry for 一

Link: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%B8%80

I don't know if it's because this page is very long, but by the time you get to Korean on the bottom, the page is full of lua errors. The content for the Korean and Vietnamese sections is not accessible due to this problem. — This unsigned comment was added by 98.36.241.22 (talk) at 08:58, 15 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, this is a known problem. See WT:Lua memory errors. —Mahāgaja · talk 09:15, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve added a section Workaround for users. While I don’t expect users to hit on that section (unless we can replace the current unhelpful “Lua error: not enough memory / No further details are available” by “Lua error: not enough memory / see Wiktionary:Lua memory errors § Workaround for users”), we can at least refer them to this kludge if they contact us. I wish the page spent more space on explaining why the problem arises (50 megabytes is a lot; is so much really needed?), instead of listing umpteen probably mostly nonviable solutions. --Lambiam 13:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Check my new entry

Hello, Can anyone please check my new entry and give me feedback on how can I improve? I took the templates from विश्वास page. Lightbluerain (talk) 02:54, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The etymology is right for विश्वास, but wrong for this page, since it contains both विश्वास and भंग. Look at some of the entries in Category:Hindi compound words to see how they handle such situations. I also wonder about the declension: how does Hindi handle compounds where the second part isn't a noun? Shouldn't it be the first part that takes the endings? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:18, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Edited per your feedback. Lightbluerain (talk) 03:25, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adding new pronoun and noun senses to the entry for OP (original poster)

The term OP, derived from the phrase "original poster", can be used as a pronoun akin to they (singular), he, and she as shown in the quotations that follow and can also be used as a term of address, again see quotations. I am wondering how to use Template:en-pron to create the appropriate pronoun entry and whether it would make sense to create a separate etymology section for senses that are derived from "original post" or "original poster"?

2007 January 16, woodle [username], “VB6, maximum size for a 'Long' variable.”, in Whirlpool‎^[1], comment:
Since OP only needs to store large integers I would use Singles, since they are faster and smaller than Currency or Double. I doubt he's going to see too many files that are larger than 1.0E38 bytes.
2012 July 20, anonymous author, chapter #13340, in OMGUW‎^[2], comment:
I think OP meant bicycling in the same direction as cars. I always get nervous when I'm driving and there is a bicyclist that is going the opposite direction that I am on the same side as me.
2012 September 29, Wagtail [username], “My shod lame tb who was going to be pts, 1st hack today :)”, in Horse and Hound‎^[3], comment:
OP that is fabulous news!

Thanks and take care. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 00:56, 18 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, which examples are you thinking are pronouns, as opposed to terms of address? I would not interpret any of the examples above as pronouns. I've seen usage like that before, and view it as using "OP" as a name, a stand-in for whatever OP's name is. If OP were named User123 or Pat, you could replace "OP" with "User123" or "Pat" in all of the above citations. I suppose this could mean "OP" is a proper noun and not just a common noun, but I'm not sure if that's worth adding a ===Proper noun=== section for or not. - -sche (discuss) 07:48, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking that the first two quotations involved the use of OP as a pronoun. Reading the first one more closely, I think I'm starting to agree with you more that it is being used as a proper noun. Specifically, I see that woodle used OP in the first sentence, but the pronoun he in the second. This matches the pattern of a proper noun better than a pronoun. The third I thought showed usage as a term of address, but after doing some more research on how proper nouns and terms of address are used I agree it would make more sense to also consider it a instance of usage as a proper noun. Now, on to the question of adding a proper noun heading. I think the discussion that is currently happening at Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/English#Dog (2) (to be archived at Talk:Dog) is probably relevant since we are also hitting upon the question "When is a proper noun usage based on a noun worthy of inclusion?". I think in this case the usage is so widespread that one could argue that the term could be included under the "likely to be useful to readers" clause of WT:SOP. Regardless, I think it would be prudent to wait until the discussion of Dog ends before finalizing a conclusion. Thanks and take care. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

English words w/suffix "-ible". =possible addition= visible

visible (?) — This unsigned comment was added by 2600:1700:DF41:5990:9C9D:EABA:F53B:1660 (talk) at 21:47, 19 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

In general, we only put words in a category like "Klingon words suffixed with -oy" if the word was formed in the Klingon language by adding the suffix -oy to a stem. So if the Klingon were to borrow the word tabatsoy from Tagalog – which is in the category Tagalog words suffixed with -oy – we do not put it in a category "Klingon words suffixed with -oy". The English word visible was borrowed from French, which inherited it from Latin visibilis, so it is in the category Latin words suffixed with -ibilis, but not in French words suffixed with -ible, and similarly for English. --Lambiam 12:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Though it's not only about formation in one language, but also about the possibility to form it in others: German Scanner could be both borrowed from English scanner (scan + -er) but also analysable as scannen + -er and be categorised in both German words borrowed from English and German words suffixed with -er.

As for visible, there's English -ible but nothing like vis = (to) see. — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3718:E960:59E6:821D:9C:199E (talk) at 12:25, 20 May 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Reviewing Multiple, Multilingual Edits by an IP User

Hello and apologies if this is not the right page for this. Starting on May 5, 216 edits have come from the IP address 101.176.43.230 (contributions). Many of the edits seem to be the addition of translations while others are the addition of usage examples or the creation of new pages. By my count, the contributions have been made across two dozen languages, with this edit being particularly large. Given the volume and breadth of the edits I worried the edits may be copied from another resource or otherwise incorrect. Can others take a look to the edits to make sure that they are good? Thanks. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 05:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is such a thing as a copyright on translations of individual words, also not when they are copied from a multilingual dictionary. The dictionary as a whole may enjoy copyright, and one should not copy wholesale segments, but this kind of use appears legit to me. This is entirely separate from the question whether they are correct. I have checked the Turkish additions, and they all appear correct. --Lambiam 12:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the translations of individual terms are probably not under copyright, but the blurry line between wholesale segments and small amounts concerns me. I'm confused as to why you note copying from multilingual as an exception. It is reassuring to hear that the Turkish additions appear correct. Take care. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 02:36, 23 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With Mon Module editing help me

Hi, I have created a module for IPA, but I need to continue editing so I need help, although the module has been developed, it is not yet complete due to my lack of expertise.

Copy use Keys for IPA

Is d’ attested in Latin?

I looked on Google Books to see if anybody wrote d’excidio or d’expugnatione, but I couldn’t find examples of either. It seems like there should be at least one isolated instance of somebody using d’ in Latin, if only due to Romance influence. —(((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 06:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Was the apostrophe used at all at the time? If people did not notate the elided vowel, wouldn’t they mostly simply have written dexcidio or dexpugnatione? Compare also the spelling in le morte Darthur.^[4] Reportedly, the first use of the apostrophe was in the 1496 book De Aetna ad Angelum Chabrielem Liber, but I did not readily spot uses there. --Lambiam 14:25, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

what's this Greek word in medieval marginalia

Atop page 65 of the Konungsbók there are two Greek words. I'm pretty sure the first is λὀγος; what's the second? I can't work out what the 1st, 2nd, and 5th letters are. Logosetcr (talk) 18:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ἀκέφαλος (aképhalos). 212.224.226.73 18:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Huh! Thanks! What a way to write an α! Logosetcr (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The α’s, especially the second, almost look like an οτ ligature, but this form for the κ is quite common. --Lambiam 12:46, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary:Discord server

What is it? Is it recommended for all (active) users to join it? What exactly is being done there? We already have our own discussion pages in Wiktionary, so has it any special functions? Thanks. -_⸘- dictātor·mundī 23:11, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's real-time chat where you can exchange messages, similar to IRC or instant messaging. Rather different from leaving messages for later replies, like a talk page or Web forum. Discord is a proprietary system (not free and open-source like the rest of Wikimedia), and "our" Discord server is, I think, owned and maintained by one particular user, so it should probably not be viewed as "official". Just a place where interested people can have general conversations about Wiktionary stuff. Equinox ◑ 23:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]