Wiktionary:Information desk/2014/December

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← November 2014 · December 2014 · January 2015 → · (current)

---

How to add a category

I'm not a new user but I can't see where else this would fit. I added the names of musical notes in Persian (دو, ر, می, فا, سل, لا and سی), and I added them to 'Category:fa:Musical notes'. However, I can't see how to add a new category (musical notes) to the tree. According to Template:topic cat/documentation, it should explained be at Module:category tree/topic cat, but I think I don't really understand it. Could anyone add this category for me? Thanks. Kaixinguo (talk) 12:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Finnish declensions

I'm just an occasional user of Wiktionary. Today I looked up word suurempi and I believe I found an error. I would have corrected it, but the declension stuff seems to work with some automatic macros/templates/patterns (whatever they are called) so I'm not sure where the correction should go.

The page says suurempi is declined like vanhempi, which is fine. However, it also says that there is no gradation. Unfortunately gradation is not hyperlinked, but I guess it can only mean consonant gradation. My Finnish lessons are many years in the past, but I don't think there is any other gradation (of course I never learned these terms in English, but I guess we are talking about astevaihtelu here).

As page Appendix:Finnish_nominal_inflection/vanhempi correctly explains on the lower half of the page KOTUS type 16 does obey consonant gradation mp --> mm. Still the inflection pattern in the upper half says "no gradation".

How would that be fixed or am I missing something here? --U1106 (talk) 16:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

All the vanhempi-type words have the mp-mm gradation "built in" so to say. So that may be why it says no gradation; it's technically redundant to the type. But I agree this is somewhat confusing. @Hekaheka Do you think we should show gradations that are built into certain inflection patterns? —CodeCat 16:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I think that we should show the gradation. In this declension class the gradation is always mp->mm, but "no gradation" is not right as user U1106 points out. --Hekaheka (talk) 18:00, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I fixed it now. Apparently I had already made it so it shows gradations that are implied in the type, but in this one case I had made a mistake and it didn't work. —CodeCat 18:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Jijay : Please remove this word from wiktionary

Hi Admin,

People are having name as "Jijay". your meaning of the name in the wiktionary is "heart breaking". So can you please remove this word from your wiktionary.

The same word will have different meaning in the different languages. So, please remove this word from your wiktionary.

I hope you understand the feeling of the people. Remember that " The man's name is to him the sweetest and most important sound in any language".

Thanks and regards, For the benefit of the people, who have this name.

Wiktionary is not censored. If words are used, we document them. That's our primary goal. —CodeCat 02:08, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, however, that entry does by coincidence need some serious cleaning. I marked it as RFC. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 05:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Auxiliary verb for "anfangen"

On English wiktionary, it is claimed that both "haben" and "sein" could be the auxiliary verb for "anfangen" (presumably context dependent). However German wiktionary lists only "haben". If both can be used, could German wiktinoary be updated? Or, if only "haben" works, and Duden seems to say this ("starkes Verb; Perfektbildung mit »hat«"), English wiktionary should be fixed? I'd fix it myself, but for things like these I don't trust my low level of German. :) --Hugovdm (talk) 23:13, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, i can tell you it's just "haben". Example: "Ich habe angefangen" not "Ich bin angefangen". Maybe in Bavarian, but i am not from Bavaria. - Master of Contributions (talk) 23:23, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think even people who say "Ich bin gestanden" and "Ich bin gesessen" say "Ich bin angefangen". I'm sure it's just a mistake in the template. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:47, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Having read the usage note, I take that back. Apparently it's nonstandard usage found in some parts of Germany. If de-wikt doesn't have it, that'll be because they're much more prescriptive than we are. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! The differences (between de-wikt and en-wikt policies and guidelines) are good to know about. (I make use of both, together with Duden of course.) --Hugovdm (talk) 00:03, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Telugu

Noun

పడవ (paDava)

1. boat

Category:Telugu nouns Category:te:Transport

mg:పడవ ta:పడవ

Wiktionary suggestions

1. Pop up translation from Wiktionary when mouse over word would translate it to English or other languages.English Wiktionary has millions of words (most are inflections) and you can use free OpenSource Kiwix for offline Wikipedia and Wiktionary (but Wiktionary is downloaded separately try using Google) and that offline Wiktionary could be programmed with pop up window to display articles (you can also find pop up code on Google like C++).
2. Make all words in articles lead to new page related to the word, this can be done with programming when click on any word from article would lead to new articles but text would remain the same and standard wiki link to new article would override it or usual words or phrases.
3. In each edit in history make report vandalism or spam with short explanation.
4. Auto-sign when user begins with : but if edits inside between : an signature wouldn't sign it.
5. Wikibot that would automatically translate via Google Translate articles from English Wikipedia and save them to other Wikipedia's that could save more time in writing articles but only for new articles links and files would be copied by Wikibot and then replaced after translation.
6. Shortcuts for edit summary for example m minor edit.
7. When signature is changed automatically change all signature of user (I have seen that in RPG Maker games you can type name of player and that name is displayed in whole game).
8. TTS Text to Speech like Ekho I have read that it is possible to record ones own voice only vowels and consonants it is about one MB large and can read any text.And other languages as well.
9. Also pop up translation for words from Wiktionary and how much times articles were visited.
10. Input methods embedded in Wiki editor like Chinese.
11. Also when make next word in new row in Wikipedia is displayed in same row this can be a problem for writhing many words one below other.
12. Perhaps some translator like Google Translate which is online or for Android there are not much free quality translators today except Google Translate.
13. When users edit is reverted or changed by different user would notify the user in special notifications, this would help if user has hundreds or thousands of edits so that he doesn't need to search all pages.Watch page is only for some pages it would be useful to have most although user can ignore it if he wants.
14. Wiki template that would make active count users edits and articles. Xand2 金日光旦照 (talk) 08:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Display image from link to other website (not Wikipedia). Xand2 金日光旦照 (talk) 09:21, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Head football coach at LSU in 1909 information

Your information for the head coach at LSU in 1909 was incorrect. Joseph G. Prichard, head coach at LSU, was a graduate of Vanderbuilt and attended LSU for further study. He was a great football player at Vanderbuilt; therefore, selected to be the head coach at LSU until a head coach was interview for the job for the longterm. Look at the LSU program for football and see who is the head coach (s) and the schedule for that year 1909 - 1910.

This is Wiktionary (a dictionary), not Wikipedia(an encyclopedia). If any of our entries contains any information about who was head coach at LSU, let us know so we can delete it- that's not dictionary material. Otherwise, please go to the web site that actually has that information and discuss it there. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:56, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Do people use Word of the Day?

Do the people who use this website actually get use out of the Word of the Day feature? I myself find it utile for labouring over at Wikcionario, but I suspect that average Anglos don’t much care for it. I’ve always had the impression that Anglophones despise pedantic speech and would rather use common (and short) words in all of their communication. I’m not suggesting that we delete this feature, I just wonder if it has any significant effects on the physical world. --Romanophile (talk) 08:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, I like it. And I don't think it's pedantic; it's just a way to introduce words that are unusual for one reason or another. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

But most people don’t like unusual words, especially because it may obligate them to look up the definition. People prefer common terms. For example, I was talking with my friend on‐line a few hours ago, and I said the word ‘Anglophone.’ He asked what it meant, so I explained it to him. Then he enquired ‘Why couldn’t you just say English‐speaking person?’ Now ideally, people would use these terms more if they encountered them more frequently, but this presents a contradiction: In order to become common, it must be used more, but it won’t be used more because it’s so uncommon. --Romanophile (talk) 08:16, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

We're a dictionary; we want to encourage people to look up definitions! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:25, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

shm

There is something in the English language, that is be considered childish and slang but is still not uncommonly used, to say one word twice, but to replace a part of the word with the "shm" sound. Such as, for example, "I don't care what the percentage of winning is. I will still cheer him on." "Yeah, percentage, pershmentage. You can do it, Gingka!" Another example is. "Jack, you know the rules!" "Rules shmules, I can do what I want." Is there any way we can put this into an entry/appendix? Could this possibly be considered a prefix/affix? I want to know more about what this sort of thing is in languages. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 04:22, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

See schm- and w:shm-reduplication. It's from Yiddish. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Couldn't this be an affix or something too though? Such as in, "percentage, pershmentage"? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 05:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

The term you're looking for is infix. Affix is the general, position-independent term for prefixes, postfixes, infixes and circumfixes. Yes, for some people it's an infix, but not for everybody. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:52, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation depending on context

In some languages, especially French, can't the pronunciation of a word change depending on the context? For instance, in front of a vowel, it sounds different than in front of a consonant? If so, is it/why isn't it included in the pronunciation part of entries where this can happen? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 05:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

w:Liaison (French) is governed by phonological rules that are part of the the language as a whole and the liaison form is quite simple and predictable from the spelling, so it tends not to be shown in dictionary pronunciation sections. The idea is that you learn the patterns as part of learning the language, so either you know them for every word that has them, or you don't know them st all. Whether an initial h interferes with liaison is unpredictable (if it does, it's called an "aspirated" h), so dictionaries show that. I notice that we show phonological variants for several Celtic languages, but those are reflected in the spelling, and they're far more complex and extensive. In Sanskrit we don't show the final consonant at all for most lemmas, and in the inflection tables we show the -h isolated forms, but not the -s form that precedes a vowel in the next word. In general, the interactions (called w:Sandhi) are so complicated and pervasive that you really need to refer to the sandhi section of a grammar to even find words in a dictionary, let alone read a simple text. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:47, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation can also depend upon context in English - the most obvious example is the, whose pronunciation depends on the following letter being a consonant or vowel. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Most languages have rules of external sandhi to some extent. I would be in favor of us adding liaison forms to our French pronunciation sections, at least in cases where the pronunciation may not be what the spelling leads us to expect (e.g. un grand homme is [œ̃ ɡʁãtɔm], isn't it?). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:07, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Question as to 'torpedieren' entry

I was looking at the English entry for the German verb torpedieren and I noticed the past participle was 'torpediert'. If my German teacher is right all regular German weak verbs have ge- prefixed to the 3rd person singular present active indicative to form the past participle.

Not all. Only verbs stressed on the first syllable take the ge- prefix. Verbs starting with an unstressed prefix like be-, ver-, etc., as well as verbs ending in -ieren, do not take the ge- prefix. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:59, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Is the stress an absolute rule, or are there exceptions? Verbs with non-initial stress that do take ge-? —CodeCat 23:04, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

There's gebenedeit, but that's really rare, being used virtually only in the Ave Maria. Otherwise I can't think of any exceptions at all. The getolereert vs. toleriert contrast is one of the most salient morphological differences between Dutch and German. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:33, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Translations page?

Hello,

I am working on creating a comprehensive list of medical translations from English to Setswana to put online, and I would like to put it on one of the Wikimedia platforms instead of through any other website since users in Africa and the Middle East have free access to Wikimedia sites, and we are working on a project in Botswana to use Wikipedia/media in the healthcare setting. Would Wiktionary be an appropriate place to put this information? Could I create a page with all the translations on it?

Thanks!

I noticed an omission

On the page for "heretofore" you have listed "henceforth" as an antonym.

However, on the page for "henceforth" you have no antonym listed, which should say "heretofore."

swahili

Is there anyone interested on project of developing Swahili dictionary? Swahili: The most spoken language in East Africa? — This unsigned comment was added by Fulany2k (talk • contribs).

Well, we already have a lot of entries in Category:Swahili language, and there's already a Swahili Wiktionary, and the Kamusi Project is also a collaborative dictionary with a large Swahili database, so the projects are already started, they just need more volunteers. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

can’t edit my page

Please modify the protection for my user page so that I can edit it. --Romanophile (talk) 00:05, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV (talk • contribs), maybe…? --Romanophile (talk) 01:39, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

 Done. — Ungoliant ^(falai) 01:41, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

RFT code

I see the Tea room has a discussion on code which is listed under oldest tagged RFTs, what does that mean?Riverstogo (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

What I think it means now is "Request for tea", what you need to do is search in the history of code for the edit tagged rft, not with the search box though because it never seems to find anything? just use ctrl + F one 500 entry page at a time to find the month, then look in the tea room archive to see what was discussed. Turns out code just needed some work. Would seem there needs to be a clean up of the tea room tags? I'll remove this one as a first step.Riverstogo (talk) 04:28, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Not sure how to remove code from the list of oldest tagged RFT? though it now is not tagged in my limited understanding, whew, I need some tea.Riverstogo (talk) 04:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

My new understanding is that the tea room is used instead of Wiktionary talk pages due to the low number of registered users per entry vs Wikipedia.

DCDuring suggests posting a link to the archived discussion on each talk page, I have tried to do this on the code talk page appropriately and to conclude the discussion. I might do more tea room tag removal if anyone thinks this is a good approach? I will try linking this suggestion on the tea room talk page.Riverstogo (talk) 23:01, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not directly the number of users, but rather the ratio of users to pages. Wiktionary users edit a lot more pages, but make relatively small edits and the majority of pages will only ever be edited by a single person (or even no people at all, in the case of bots). They are created once and then may not be touched for years. This means that many pages don't appear on anyone's watch list, so talk page messages won't be noticed. On the Tea Room, they will. —CodeCat 23:02, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Santana winds

When I first arrived at San Diego, (1961) the hot dry winds were always referred to as Santana winds. They were, according to what seems reasonable, as Santana's from the Spanish living on the coastal stretch lo those many years, (hundreds really). Which considering how Santa Ana (city)didn't arrive on the seen until years later, why would they (Spanish)call them anything else. So, if one wants to be a purist, they should be called exactly what they in fact are, devil winds. That because they create such havoc in the LA basin, the natives referred to the basin as the Valley of the Smokes. Which all too often looks just like that from today's satellites looking down from outer space. Bernard M. Schermerhorn USN (retired)

You might be interested to read w:Santa Ana winds#Etymology. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Which Unicode character is the slashed 0 used to visually distinguish number 0 from letter O?

In many real-world applications where it is very useful to help normal folks quickly distinguish between the number character zero and the capital letter O a character that looks like the number with a slash is used. Which Unicode character is that? DCDuring TALK 15:45, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• See Slashed zero SemperBlotto (talk) 15:50, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

  So we can't have an entry for this in case "someone would run across it and want to know what it means", even if they know Unicode. Doesn't this illustrate a problem with even having entries for Unicode? DCDuring TALK 16:09, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what you're getting at. There is no separate Unicode character for the slashed zero; some fonts render "0" with a slash, others render it without one. Without a Unicode character, we have no way of having an entry for it besides 0. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

• Perhaps unsurprisingly, U+0030 DIGIT ZERO. — Keφr 16:47, 30 December 2014 (UTC)