User talk:TAKASUGI Shinji/2014

Make Korean 하다-verb entries in the verbal nouns, similar to Japanese する-verbs

Hi,

Do you think it's a good idea - see Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/January#Korean 하다-verbs? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:04, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I replied there. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:48, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Module:ko-translit

Hi Shinji,

I would like to continue the work on Korean transliteration but I could use your help there. Not sure why the work has stopped Kephir (talk • contribs) probably thinks we have disagreements or he has lost interest. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

지내다

Hi,

Do you mind quality checking the conjugation table, please? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:30, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

They are all right except for the informal non-polite honorific imperative 지내셔 (jinaesyeo), which doesn’t exist. In fact no verb has such a form. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:24, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. That means other verbs are incorrect as well, e.g. 나타내다? I'm not familiar with all Korean verb forms yet, copied the template call from another entry. Should this be "jinaeya", by any chance? sorry can't type in Korean right now. Wyang (talk • contribs) has corrected a mistransliteration of 서 from "ya" to "seo" in Template:ko-conj-verb. Could you check the form in Template:ko-conj-verb, please? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:39, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

The template only non-exhaustively lists some grammatically valid constructions, some of which may be logically incorrect (eg. the example above) or weird-sounding in real life. Wyang (talk) 11:25, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know enough Korean grammar to make a good suggestion but do you guys have any? There's a piece of incorrect information there. Users who work on Template:ko-conj-verb are no longer active. What should we do? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:53, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

WT:RFD archival

Hello Takasugi Shinji. Re this greatly appreciated edit of yours, could you point me to the place where those discussions are archived, please? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 02:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

In the discussion page of each entry, such as Talk:I don't speak Russian. I’m currently copying the discussions, so wait for several minutes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh yes, I see. Thanks, both for the answer and for the valuable clutter-clearing work. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 02:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Citations

Hi, could I ask a favor? If you delete a page, please do not also erase from Wiktionary any citations that it contained. We have a namespace where those can be kept independent of any entry. Sometimes it is possible to find additional citations later, in support of a definition. DAVilla 09:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Did I delete a citation? If so, it is my fault. I didn’t have an intention to do so. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

prime

Hi,

Could you check/fix some of the Japanese translations at prime, please, specifically the verb sections if it's OK with you? If translations are SOP, you can do like this: 下塗りをする (shitanuri o suru) (just an example) or let me know and I'll wikify those. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:36, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

お茶

Hi,

Could we label it somehow as a grammatical or historical honorific? Perhaps, the same for ご飯, おにぎり, お巡り? Also pinging @Eirikr, if he's interested. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:10, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Explain

this. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Just a click error. Canceled 18 seconds later: [1]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Pitch accent on 朝鮮

Hi,

I couldn't find a Japanese sound recording for 朝鮮. What's the pitch accent pattern? In the Japanese Wiktionary, there's "ちょ↗ーせ↘ん". Is it the same as {{ja-pron|ちょうせん|acc=3|y=on}} - 中高型? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:13, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, ソウル seems to be 頭高型 (for all senses) but is it [so̞ːɾ̠ɯᵝ] or [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ]? If I use automatic IPA it would be the former but it sounds like the latter and the current IPA shows /souru/. CC: @Wyang. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:22, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, 朝鮮 has an accent fall on the third mora せ. The lowering of the first mora is not clear if the second mora is ー, ん or っ.

As for ソウル, I pronounce it as ソウル, not ソール, but the difference is hard to detect. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:02, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I have updated ソウル. If it's pronounced [so̞ɯᵝɾ̠ɯᵝ]， then it could be added to Category:Japanese words with nonphonetic spellings? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:27, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I might be misunderstanding what you say but it is a phonetic spelling. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I haven't added the category yet. By the current rules, which are also used by the transliteration module, any お row + う is transliterated as "ō", unless, they belong to different morphemes, like 小馬 (こ.うま) or it's a verb ending - as in 思う. If ソウル is pronounced "Souru", not "Sōru", then it must be an exception, unlike other borrowings with o+u, like ノウハウ, which is pronounced "nōhau". The category name is misleading, though, it should be something with "irregular pronunciations" like Category:Russian terms with irregular pronunciations. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 15:01, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

ノウハウ is nouhau, not nōhau. Katakana words require ー for a long vowel. Rather, オウ pronounced as オー is irregular, such as ボウリング, which is commonly pronounced as bōringu rather than bouringu. The following words are also interesting: ゲイ (gei) vs. ゲーム (gēmu), ペイ (pei) vs. ページ (pēji). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

According to NHK 日本語発音アクセント辞典 (omitting the pitch accent here) ノウハウ is pronounced ノーハウ, same with ボウリング pronounced ボーリング, for ソウル (only gives the "soul music" sense) pronounced ソウル. The audio recordings confirm these pronunciations, they are quite clear. Even if we transliterate ノウハウ as "nouhau" and ボウリング as bouringu, the question is, what is considered a regular pronunciation (not transliteration) for katakana オウ - long "ō" or "ou"? Also pinging @Eirikr, @Wyang --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I pronounce ノウハウ as nouhau. ノーハウ is something like the old-fashioned デー for D instead of the modern ディー… — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:18, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, we can always add multiple pronunciations, despite what NHK or other dictionaries say or prescribe. My question remains unanswered - for katakana words (loanwords), do we consider ō or ou the standard regular pronunciation of "オウ"? Are they both standard regular? If not, then, which one is irregular. Obviously "オウ" rather than "オー" is meant to render "ou" in foreign languages but it seems that it's not always working. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:05, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I have already said that オウ pronounced as オー is irregular. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 13:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Some Korean words

Hi,

I've got some questions about Korean. The resources I currently have only misled me.

1. Does 바꿔하다 mean "put through" (telephone)? What are other meanings?
2. Does 음료수 mean any beverage or only alcoholic?
3. Does 어서 오세요 literally mean "come quickly"? Does it merit an entry or its more formal form?
4. Does 인분 also mean "portion"? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

1. I’m not sure what 바꿔하다 means. Isn’t it the same as 바꾸다?
2. 음료수 means soft drinks such as coke and soda.
3. Shop clerks say 어서 오세요 to possible customers outside of the shop meaning "welcome, please come in."
4. 인분 (人分) is a counter meaning a portion for one person, usually a food.

— TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! Sorry, I've come across 바꿔주세요 - pls. put me through (to) --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

바꿔 주세요 = 바꾸다 ("to change") + 주다 (auxiliary of beneficiary, "for me") + -세요 (honorific polite informal imperative), i.e. "please change." — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:45, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Two types of 'gana

Hi, if you have a chance do you think you could make entries for 合略仮名 and 住基仮名? I noticed them on a wanted list and with my current limited level of Japanese knowledge and a miserable (practically nonexistent AFAICT) amount of English google results I can't do much about them. Thanks. User: PalkiaX50 ^{talk to meh} 15:30, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Done. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:24, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

狛

Takasugi-san, could you take a look at diff and clarify what "archaic part of Korea" means? (Korea during the Goryeo dynasty, perhaps?) - -sche (discuss) 21:49, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

 Done.　—　TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Category:Japanese renjou

This category needs to be created but I have no idea what it means or under which category it should be placed. Could you create it and give it the necessary description and parent category? —CodeCat 00:27, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

I have created an article: 連声. If the category is to be created, it should be named Category:Japanese renjō. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Ok, can you please do it? There are also other categories that need creating:

• Category:Japanese terms spelled with ateji (I think this should have "kanji" at the end)
• Category:Japanese kanji needing attention
• Category:Japanese terms with unexpected Romanizations‏‎ (should have a small r)
• Category:Japanese terms read with kan'yōon‏‎
• Category:Japanese kanji read as なんっのん‏‎

—CodeCat 22:38, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

The last one is just an error and I have already cleared it. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Capitalisation of common nouns within proper nouns

@Tooironic, Eirikr, Wyang Hi Shinji,

Do you think that parts of proper nouns - rivers, cities, peninsulas, etc. should be capitalised in the romanisations? I prefer "Tai ōkoku" to "Tai Ōkoku" (タイ王国), "Tài wángguó" to "Tài Wángguó" (泰王國/泰王国). Dictionaries have different conventions on this. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:15, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

They should be capitalized in Japanese. NHK always uses Nippon Hōsō Kyōkai. In Korean, if we strictly follow the standard, the common nouns should remain in small letters. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Are there any exceptions? I've seen hyphens, followed by lower case words in dictionaries e.g. "Temuzu-gawa" (テムズ川) What are other rules - demonyms, language names, names of religions, -isms (e.g. Marxism) for example? Things that are capitalised in English but necessarily in other languages? I think we have an agreement to have them in lower case - nihonjin, nihongo, kirisutokyō, marukusushugi. So, Korean, Japanese and Mandarin Chinese may differ in the rules. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:27, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

In your example, -gawa is considered a suffix, and not capitalized. I don’t know why you use lower case for 日本人 and 日本語. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

You must have been away from what's happening here. Romanisation Language names and demonyms are lower case and that's not my invention. Do you see it as an issue? Ping: @Eirikr, Haplology, Whym. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Not sure the "rule" on this, as it were, but I've seen both capitalised and non-capitalised. For example, China is zhōngguó in 现代汉语规范词典 and moedict.tw, but Zhōngguó in MDBG and Wenlin. But I do know two things 1) it is more useful for users to capitalised proper nouns as it makes the sense stand out compared to other parts of speech 2) we already do this, and we should maintain this consistency.

To answer your original question, I don't think it matters a whole lot as long as at least the main word in the term is capitalised. For example, I added Cháoxiān Bàndǎo, but I don't think adding Cháoxiān bàndǎo would have made much of a difference for users. Still, we could decide on a rule and stick with it for the sake of consistency. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Clearly languages have different rules, like French Republic and République française. We tend to judge according to English rules of capitalization. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:56, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tooironic I'm more certain for demonyms, language names, names of religions, -isms - they should be lower case in Japanese, Korean and Vietnames - Min Nan lect often follows English conventions - Iû-thài-kàu for 猶太教／犹太教 (Yóutàijiào). Wenlin has more inconsistencies about this. My preference is "Cháoxiān bàndǎo" (I saw your edit) but I have stopped working with pinyin - it's a bot job, including homophone data in the module. Let's follow NHK for Japanese only, besides, the transliteration is 100% automatic for Japanese, except for spacing and capitalises proper nouns automatically. Country, city, people's names should be capitalised, no prob with that.

@Shinji, I don't want to follow English, just what's best for languages in question. Russian uses lower cases much more often as well, Finnish even more. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I’ve found the rules for Japanese: [2]. The rule 8-i seems strange, and nobody follows it. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:15, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll study it. Anything about language names, religions, demonyms, -isms (based on people's names)? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I think they should be also capitalized, just like in English. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tooironic, Wyang, Jamesjiao I have tried to get you in Wiktionary_talk:About_Chinese#Capitalisation_of_demonyms_and_language_names_-_a_mini-vote on Mandarin romanisation but it was brushed off as not important or ignored. We can, of course, separate the discussions for specific languages. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)