User talk:Kyoww

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Edits at ぬ

Hello Kyoww --

I just reverted your edit at ぬ. The archaic label is inappropriate here, as this indicates content that sounds deliberately old-fashioned. The dialect label is also inappropriate, as this indicates content that is only found in dialects, and not in the "standard" version of the language. The negative auxiliary ん is used in everyday casual speech by speakers of standard Japanese, and thus it is neither archaic nor dialect. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:48, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

As you said, ん is used in everyday casual speech by speakers standard Japanese, but... I can't agree to label casual for ない and very casual for ん, what is a reference point of very?

And, I show the source of archaic and dialect for you. See this link. --Kyoww (talk) 14:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

打消しの助動詞は、共通語においては「ない」を用いるのが普通で、「ます」に続く「ん」以外の「ぬ（ん）」は、主に文語的表現や慣用句的表現に使われるだけであるが、関西を中心とする西部の方言では「ぬ（ん）」が広く用いられる。

• If you prefer formal instead of casual, I have no objections to the change. My point is simply that ない is plain form, and thus not to be used in polite / formal speech outside of relative clauses, and that negative ん is even rougher.

But regarding ん, the Goo entry you link to is describing something a bit different. The use of parentheses simply shows that ぬ often abbreviates to just ん. Final ぬ is certainly archaic. Final ん is not so much -- そうじゃん？

(PS: If you want someone to be notified when you make an edit to a Talk page or a forum page, make sure to use the {{ping}} template in your post.)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:09, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you for your reply, but I have never said that I prefer formal for ん, and I prefer casual or informal for ん as well as ない. And you misunderstand about ん. ん including じゃん is different from the auxiliary verb ん.

英語で説明するのが難しいので、日本語で書いてもいいですか。申し訳ありません。「じゃん」の「ん」は私たちが話題にしている助動詞の「ん」とは別の語尾です。「じゃん」は「じゃない」と対応関係があるので、「じゃん」の「ん」と「じゃない」の「ない」は助動詞の「ん」「ない」と同一の語尾だと思っていらっしゃるかもしれません。しかし、まず「じゃない」の「ない」は「食べない」のような助動詞の「ない」ではなく、形容詞の「無い」です。「では無い」が変化して「じゃない」になっているのです。そして、「じゃん」の語源ははっきりしていませんが、「じゃない」の「ない」を助動詞「ない」と混同して、助動詞「ない」と「ん」は対応しているから「じゃない」も「じゃん」と言うことができると勘違いした人達が作り出した言葉だという説があります。

したがって、「じゃん」がvery casualな表現だからといって、助動詞の「ん」もvery casualであると捉えるのは誤りです。助動詞の「ん」が「じゃん」の成立に影響を与えた可能性は高いですが、あくまで「じゃん」と「ん」は別の言葉です。--Kyoww (talk) 00:36, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• Hello again.  :) Japanese is not a problem for me. Eventually, we should probably add a translation of your comment, so that other non-Japanese-reading editors can understand.

The ん in じゃん is often analyzed as a replacement for ない, coming from 無い. However, phonologically and historically, there is much better evidence that this ん is alternately from suppositional む or from negative ぬ: じゃん from ではあらむ or ではあらぬ, where these are clearly verbal suffixes. The slightly fuller form じゃない is a result of replacing あらぬ with ない in the modern language. We also have modern colloquial negative ん as in わからん, かもしれん, and other such constructions that again are using ん as a verbal suffix. In these cases, ん is more colloquial / less polite / less formal than ない: the description of verb ending ん as more informal than ない is not based on the formality or casualness of じゃん.

(Side note / 蛇足 -- there is some suggestion that ない, as both negative verb ending and standalone negation adjective, may have developed from ぬ.)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 01:31, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• I'm sorry about making light of your understanding about Japanese language. I almost agree your reply, but I still feel somewhat strange to label very casual for ん, because there are considerable examples of use ん as "informal", "archaic" or "provincial" in works of Japanese literature and popular culture.--Kyoww (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• No worries, it is often difficult to gauge another person's abilities when communicating only over the internet.  :)

I appreciate you taking the time to continue this thread. As you note, ん can also be dialectal or archaic, depending on context. On the ぬ entry, perhaps you could add "also archaic, also dialect"? Then, on the ん entry, add a =====Usage notes===== section under ===Etymology 2===, explaining the differences in usage. Would that resolve your concerns? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 16:18, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

• I appreciate you, too. I'll carry out your solution.--Kyoww (talk) 05:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

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• Thank you for your restructuring of ない, that looks good. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:45, 18 July 2016 (UTC)