User talk:Kbb2

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary!

Anytime I see someone making sweeping changes shortly after their first edits, it makes me really nervous. I have no idea whether your changes are right, wrong, or merely different, but this is a wiki, so you need to consult the community of editors who work with our Dutch entries. If you haven't already, please read About Dutch and discuss any changes from what's described there on the talk page there. Please show respect for the huge amount of work that has already been put into our Dutch entries and for the others who have been and are working on them so you won't end up wasting your time or that of others. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 21:06, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Hi. You can check on Wikipedia that I'm not a new user but in fact a rather old one (lol). I'll try to list a few sources to back up my edits, but I'm certain that the former analysis was based on the errorenous (and unsourced) analysis of Dutch close vowels on w:en:Dutch phonology, which should also be changed (maybe I'll work on that). Kbb2 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, as far as Wiktionary is concerned, you are a new user. The community here gets rather touchy about Wikipedia editors assuming that Wiktionary is just like Wikipedia, or (worse) that Wiktionary would be just like Wikipedia if they knew better. Wiktionary is its own project, has its own community and its own standards, and you should definitely read the guide for Wikipedia users so you won't get tripped up by some of the differences. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Never mind, I see now what your original account was- so you've already had your run-ins with the brick walls around here and don't need my advice. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:06, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: That may be so, but I still want to prove that my edits were correct. So here we go, full citations are to be found on w:en:Dutch phonology:

Booij (1999):

"[B]efore /r/, the high vowels do have the same (extra) length as the other long vowels. (...) Dutch also has marginal vowels, occuring in loan-words. The first set comprises phonetically long counterparts of native phonetically (but not always phonologically!) short vowels, as illustrated in (1). They only occur in stressed syllables: [iː, yː, uː, ɛː, œː, ɔː, ɑː] (...)." (pp. 5–6) The explanation of the lengthening and centralizing effect of /r/ on the free vowels is more detailed on the pages 6 and 7. He also notes that this lengthening doesn't take place in past-tense forms of a few verbs, which are wierp, stierf, zwierf and bedierf (so this only affects /i/, whereas /y/ and /u/ are mandatorily lengthened before /r/).

Gussenhoven (1999):

"Vowels in the third column [iː, yː, ɛː, œː, ɔː uː - my note] are marginal in the language, and only appear in recent loans. (...) /i, y, u/ are long before /r/ in the same stress foot. (...) The long marginal vowels occur only in stressed syllables. In unstressed syllables, the otherwise long [eː, øː, oː, aː] are short." (pp. 75–76)

Collins & Mees (2003):

"Before /r/, all these vowels [that is, /i, y, u/ - my note] are lenghtened in all varieties of Dutch. In addition, in (NL) ABN [Standard Dutch of the Netherlands - my note] and most Randstad accents, they are centralised and have centring glides." (p. 132) Kbb2 (talk) 13:33, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Another quote is from Gussenhoven (2007):

"Behalve wanneer ze voorkomen vóór /r/ zijn de historisch lange klinkers /iː, yː, uː/ kort geworden in de standaardtaal." (Translation: In the standard language, the historic long vowels /iː, yː, uː/ have become short, unless they occur before /r/.) This means that the long pronunciation is the original one and it has been preserved only before /r/. The phones [iː, yː, uː] have been reintroduced in stressed syllables of certain loanwords, but they don't vary with the centering diphthongs [iə ~ ɪə, yə ~ ʏə, uə ~ ʊə] and, unlike the lengthened allophones of /i, y, u/, they may be shortened in the process of nativization, which means that [iː, yː, uː] in words such as team, centrifuge and cruise belong to different phonemes than [iː, yː, uː] in bier, vuur and boer. Kbb2 (talk) 17:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)