User talk:Frankjh

Yehyek tunal!

I see you joined Wiktionary a couple of years ago and just added a lot of Pipil translations. One of our administrators, Metaknowledge, told me about the Pipil additions. It's exciting to have those.

So far, we have only one Pipil entry, at, which can be found by looking at the category page for Pipil.

We ask that Wiktionary contributors add a "Babel box" to their user page. Yours would be something like:

{{Babel | en | es-4 }}

The "en" (with no number) means native speaker of English and "es-4" means near native speaker of Spanish. Unfortunately, the Babel box cannot yet handle "ppl," the code for Pipil.

I would like to offer to be a mentor to help you get used to Wiktionary as part of our new mentoring program. I would also like to give you some useful links for Wiktionary, but in the meantime, please let me know about whether you are interested in the mentoring program. You can respond here, on my talk page or on the mentoring page. --BB12 (talk) 17:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Babel box

Fantastic! --BB12 (talk) 19:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Reply

Hi BB12!

I'm really interested in working on Pipil entries here in Wiktionary. I've been using this site for a long time now and have some knowledge about creation and edition of entries, and the Wikipedia markup language. However, I would appreciate some mentoring or help. Pipil is an endangered language and I would like to help with its recovery.

Thanks! Frankjh (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

If you need any additional help along the way, feel free to ask me as well. Is there anything specific you want help with now? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:30, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

One thing that I'd like to do is translate the BabelBox on your userpage into Pipil. Is "Ini takat weli kitaketza yek Nawat." correct? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Please verify that Template:ppl-personal pronouns is correct, and if it is, add it in a ====See also==== section at the bottom of entries that are personal pronouns. Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC) (I added it at taja so you can see how it's done.) --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! That's perfect. I will add it to the rest. For the BabelBox translation, I would rather say "Ini takat weli taketza yek ne Nawataketzalis", which literally translates as "This man/person can speak well the Nawat Language". --Frankjh (talk) 04:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I see, that's definitely a better translation. Now I realize what my mistakes were. Thanks!
Also, if there are dialectal differences in pronunciation, please distinguish which dialect of Pipil you are giving the pronunciation for. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I give the "standard" pronunciation without any specification, and just distinguish when I give a more specific dialectal pronunciation. Should I also specify when I give just the standard pronunciation? — This unsigned comment was added by Frankjh (talk • contribs).

Yes, always distinguish. You can just name the towns in which a certain pronunciation can be heard. Please format the dialectal notes with {{a}}, like I did at (deprecated template usage) takat. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:40, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You should also consider adding etymologies to the Nahuatl forms, if I am correct in assuming that Pipil is derived from Nahuatl. For how to format them, see my edit to (deprecated template usage) siwat. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 04:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Pipil is not really derived from Nahuatl (which usually means "Classical Nahuatl"). They come from the same language family and are closely related, but they are considered different "nahuan" dialects. I'm afraid I can't provide the etymologies of all the words I'm submitting, but I will try to. Thanks! --Frankjh (talk) 05:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

My mistake. I will trust your knowledge of this; see (deprecated template usage) siwat again for how I fixed it. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No worries. The "Compare" is actually really helpful. Thanks! --Frankjh (talk) 05:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

By 'Standard' do you mean the dialect of Izalco? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

By 'Standard' I meant the pronunciation that is mostly taught to non-native speakers, which coincides with the Izalco dialect to some extent. To be honest, my knowledge of the dialectal varieties of Pipil is quite limited. --Frankjh (talk) 05:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

That's OK, then. Don't worry, my knowledge is a lot more limited than yours :) --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Please don't add a 'See also' section if you have nothing to put in it. Also, isn't (deprecated template usage) nech- a prefix, not a pronoun? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:04, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was going to add a chart similar to the one you created for personal pronouns, but with object markers instead, as I just did in (deprecated template usage) nech-. And, it is indeed a suffix, but with a pronominal function. Should I change its category to suffix anyways? --Frankjh (talk) 06:12, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I think so. Turkish works similarly, and that's the method we use there. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

prefix*, I meant. Ok, I'll change that. Thanks for letting me know. --Frankjh (talk) 06:17, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

When you create new entries, you should put {{also}} at the top with very similar-looking terms so that users don't get lost. For example, see what I did at tech- and tech. Now, each one points at the other one.
Anyway, keep up the good work! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the help, I'll do that. :) --Frankjh (talk) 21:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm planning to create conjugation templates for each class of Pipil verbs. To see how it might look, check out an entry like Italian (deprecated template usage) mangiare (section 'Inflection'). Click on the [edit] tab to see how easy it is to input. I think my sources are complete, but if you have time to create a table for me, that would be amazing. I'll start with Class II. Thanks for all the work --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Wow, that'd be really amazing. I made a table here for Class II verbs, where the tilde is the stem.

Tense	naja	taja	yaja	tejemet	anmejemet	yejemet
Present	ni~	ti~	~	ti~t	an~t	~t
Subjunctive	ma ni~	ma shi~	ma ~	ma ti~kan	ma shi~kan	ma ~kan
Past	ni~k	ti~k	~k	ti~ket	an~ket	~ket
Perfect	ni~tuk	ti~tuk	~tuk	ti~tiwit	an~tiwit	~tiwit
Future*	ni~s	ti~s	~s	ti~sket	an~sket	~sket
Conditional	ni~skia	ti~skia	~skia	ti~skiat	an~skiat	~skiat
Pluperfect*	ni~tuya	ti~tuya	~tuya	ti~tuyat	an~tuyat	~tuyat
Cond. Perf.*	ni~tuskia	ti~tuskia	~tuskia	ti~tuskiat	an~tuskiat	~tuskiat
Imperative	―	shi~	―	ti~kan	shi~kan	―

*This tenses are rarely used in spoken Pipil. (Campbell, Lyle. The Pipil Language of El Salvador. Mouton Publishers, 1985, p. 68-70)

Let me know if that works. Btw, how do you create the verb conjugation templates? Thanks --Frankjh (talk) 06:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Perfect! Expect a finished product in a couple days (I'm currently on holiday, visiting family). I'll make this one, and then we can build the next one together. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 07:01, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thank you! (I made a little correction on the subjunctive for yaja. The "ma" was missing) --Frankjh (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I just want to say how amazed I am with all this progress. It's wonderful! --BB12 (talk) 08:31, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! All the support I've gotten is amazing. I hope more Pipil-speakers/learners join. — This unsigned comment was added by Frankjh (talk • contribs).

OK, I built {{ppl-conj-2}}. Due to its internal workings, you can only see how it works on a real page, so take a look at nemi#Conjugation. Make sure that everything is correct, and then we can build the next template together based on this one. Thanks --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! This is just great! It works perfectly and everything is correct. I'm afraid that (deprecated template usage) nemi is not a Class II verb, though. It's Class I. But I just created the entry for (deprecated template usage) weli (a Class II verb, although the imperative might not have much sense for it) and the template is excellent. Thank you (again)! :) --Frankjh (talk) 06:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

My mistake. Let's do Class III next. I'm going from least complicated to most complicated, so that you get some markup practice.
When you look at the code in [[Template:ppl-conj-2}} (same style as {{it-conj}} for Italian), you'll notice that I used {{PAGENAME}} a lot. It's the equivalent of the tildes in your table, because it extracts the page title. Here, for example, it produces Frankjh. You'll also notice that I used {{l|ppl|whatever}}. That template automatically formats a link that looks like [[whatever#Pipil|whatever]]. Now, in Class III, the full lemma form is not present in all the inflected forms; just the stem is. So the perfect of tajtani is tajtantuk, not *tajtanituk. Thus the stem is tajtan. That will need to be put in as the first argument, which is the part the comes after a pipe ( | ) when you call the template. Within the template code, the first argument is treated as {{{1}}}. Try copy-pasting the code from {{ppl-conj-2}} into {{ppl-conj-3}} and then fixing it with the information I've given you. I'll help you if you have problems. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the guidance! I just created {{ppl-conj-3}}, and it works perfectly. I will try to do Class IV and then Class I, though I'm afraid I'd need at least 5 different templates for this one, since there are some allophonic mutations in it. Is there a way to include all those specific mutations in a single template (they're very straightforward)? Or should I create separate templates? --Frankjh (talk) 19:46, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The mutations will take a little more work, which is why I left Class I for last. I think I'll do that one. Can you give me a table like you did the first time? (Or, if you want to learn how, I can explain my plans for dealing with the mutations. It gets more complicated, because MediaWiki doesn't always do string manipulation too well.) Remember to add documentation. See Template:ppl-conj-3/doc and the edit I made to the template itself. Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:40, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you please create the Class I template as if the mutations didn't exist? I'll add it in myself once you've done that (it will require a second parameter and the use of #switch, which I can explain if you want). Also, be sure to create Template:ppl-conj-4/doc! Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:23, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I added mutations. See {{ppl-conj-1}} for how to use it. Please test it on a mutating verb and a non-mutating one, and tell me if there are any mistakes. Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It works perfectly. I just did a minor edit because I had missed a letter in the one I did. Thank you! I think I get how the #switch works now. And btw, I'm afraid all these templates work only for intransitive verbs. For transitive verbs conjugation another template might be required for each class, I don't know. The only difference would be marking the presence of an object index with the 3rd-person singular object marker, "(deprecated template usage) ki-", between the subject marker and the verb, as in "ni-k-chiwa" (I do it). Does that need a separate template, or can that be done with the same one? Thanks --Frankjh (talk) 06:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

#switch, #if, and the rest of them are called parser functions, and understanding how to use them is integral to writing templates. If you're curious, there's a list, with all the behaviors, at mw:Help:Extension:ParserFunctions. By the way, the reason I put {{{3|}}} instead of just {{{3}}} is because if there is no third argument (i.e., if the verb is non-mutating), the template won't fail but will act as if the third argument is a blank space. That means that you don't actually have to put m for mutating verbs - you can put anything!
We can do transitivity with the same templates. This will require one more argument for each template, though. So the choice is yours: do you want to type more if it's transitive, or if it's intransitive?
As a final side note, you don't need to type "{{term|ki-#Pipil|ki-}}" because just typing {{term|ki-|lang=ppl}} works equally well. Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 14:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello

Glad to see that you're back working on Pipil entries. I noticed that you've added some plural forms of nouns — are they regularly formed? If so, we might be able to expedite that process and create {{ppl-noun}}. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:20, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: Hi Μετάknowledge! Glad to be back! Most plural forms follow regular derivation patterns. There are basically two ways of pluralizing in Pipil: (1) by reduplication of the first syllable with an intermediate <j> IPA:[h], e.g. shuchit (flower) → shujshuchit (flowers); and (2) by adding plural suffixes to the stem, e.g. takat (man) → takamet (men). There are some details to it, though: the suffixes -met and -ket are used with the absolutive form of nouns, whereas several possessed forms take the suffix -wan. Some words, like those ending with the agentive suffix -ni, can also take the suffix -t to pluralize, e.g. tapajtiani (doctor) → tapajtianit (doctors). Additionally, the pluralization of words containing the lemma pil and the suffixes -tzin and -chin, reduplicate as pipil, -tzitzin, and -chichin respectively. Other irregularities to these rules are an archaic plural of kunet (child) as kukunet (children) alongside regular kujkunet, and the fact that many stems that take -ket actually preserve or even add the -t suffix of the singular absolutive, e.g. siwat → siwatket. The two pluralization methods can also combine and yield words like tajtakamet (men) and lajlamachichinmet (old ladies). Reduplication is by far the most common way of pluralizing. As you can see, the pluralization processes are fairly regular, but often there is no clear-cut rule as to which one(s) to choose. Do you think we should create some templates or should I instead provide the corresponding plural forms for every entry I create? --Thank you! Frankjh (talk) 05:58, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm a bit lazy at the moment, so I just made a basic template that doesn't try to predict the plural at all. I wrote a bit of documentation at {{ppl-noun}}. Please use it on Pipil entries to replace {{head|ppl|noun}} so we can link to the plurals, and tell me if there's anything else pressing that I can do to help. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I also just set up macron-stripping for Pipil; see the headword-line at siwāt for example, or just the fact that I can type {{m|ppl|siwāt}} and it links to the entry whose name, of course, does not contain that macron. I hope that helps. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 06:56, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: Thanks! I just checked your edits and your entry on kunet. I think that'll do it. Do you think it is possible to add another option for "possessed" forms (singular and plural) as part of the headword line besides the absolutive plural for each noun? I'm not sure I understand the script for the template, so I don't know how to do it. --Frankjh (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

How many forms are there? Are they easily predictable, or are there multiple patterns like for the absolutive plurals? At a certain point, tables become a whole lot more aesthetically pleasing. Also, I noticed that witz and yawi need conjugation tables; are you able to make those yourself from the model of {{ppl-conj-1}} and similar or will you want help with that? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:04, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: Possessed forms are a bit more predictable: vowel-stem words add the suffix -w to the root (e.g. kunet → -kunew) while consontant-stem words drop any suffixes (sinti → -sin). Possessed plurals do the same, except for some words mostly related to people that take the suffix -wan. There are just a few words that behave slightly differently, because they are consonant-stem words but actually add a vowel + -t when they are absolutive instead of the usual -ti (e.g. kuyamet → -kuyan). These words often undergo phonetic alternations due to phonotactics, as you can see from the example. Additionally, many words have two possessed forms: a regular (or alienable) one derived as explained above, and another inalienable one, which is formed by adding the suffix -yu to the root (e.g. nakat → (1) -nakaw ; (2) -nakayu). I don't think a table is necessary for nouns. As for the verbs, I would love to create tables for yawi and witz, but I was not sure how it'd work with the templates available, since these are two irregular verbs. Should I create tables specific for these two verbs? Thanks! --Frankjh (talk) 00:28, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

But the possessed forms are just roots that need prefixes, right? Hmmm... and are there both alienable and inalienable plural forms as well? I'm trying to get a handle on the maximum number of forms. As for the irregular verbs, you can just create {{ppl-conj-witz}} and {{ppl-conj|yawi}} specially for those pages. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:32, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Unattested terms

If something isn't attested you can use {{m}} and put a star in front of it like: *chikwasen, and it will automatically link to an appendix where unattested terms can go. DTLHS (talk) 23:00, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

@DTLHS: Thanks for the input! Although I am not sure what you mean by "unattested". The morpheme I used it for (chikwa-) is not attested by itself apart from four numerals (e.g. chikwasen), all of which are indeed well attested in the language. I used the star to show it's hypothetical but I am not clear as to why or how to use the appendix. Please let me know so that I can make the appropriate corrections. --Frankjh (talk) 23:20, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Maybe it shouldn't be linked at all. @Metaknowledge, what do you think? DTLHS (talk) 23:29, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

If you can reasonably interpret it as a nonproductive prefix, that might be best. Making an appendix entry would be good if you can't make it a prefix and you want to give etymology information, derived terms, etc. However, if there isn't a need, you could just write *chikwa and not have it link to anything. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:49, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to both. In this case, I think it is actually better to just leave it without a link, since it is such a restricted, non-productive morpheme. I will make the correction and do the same for the other entries.--Frankjh (talk) 03:10, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

"Relational noun"?

I noticed you added this part of speech to a bunch of Pipil entries. It's not recognised by our templates, so I'm wondering what it is. Is it just a noun, albeit a particular kind of noun? —CodeCat 17:22, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

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