Template talk:mn-noun

@DerekWinters Could you please remove the shouts for the traditional script from the templates, please? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:25, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Phonetic re-spelling

Would anyone mind if I added a "phonetic re-spelling" line to this template? Or is there another way to note this? (for words like телевиз, "тэлвиз", автобус "автуус", etc.) TinDefacto (talk) 04:50, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@Crom daba —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 04:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@TinDefacto The phonetic respellings is a good idea but we badly lack the data on the Mongolian pronunciation. I've seen some in textbooks, phrasebooks and Bolor dictionary occasionally has audio recordings. User:Crom daba has been providing the IPA. @TinDefacto, You only had three edits in Wiktionary. How confident are you about the re-spellings and where would you have those from? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:19, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev Hi! Very decent point about the general lack of pronunciation data, but I am completely positive of these two respellings and a couple of others, as they come straight from a Mongolian native speaker (from Ulaanbaatar) whom I have been working with over the past couple of months in my efforts to learn/study the language. It is imperfect that we don't have pronunciation data for every single word, but I don't see why that should mean that we can't fill out that which we do know. Also, I know I'm new to Wiktionary, but we all have to start somewhere, and this is where I feel like I'd be most helpful! For what it's worth, I do have a degree in linguistics, so I promise I'm not a complete amateur. :)

@TinDefacto Hey, great to have another Mongolian language editor, especially an educated one.

I don't support this idea, first because I feel that headword line should be light and this stuff should belong under Alternative forms (if attested) or Pronunciation (I used this in баярлалаа#Pronunciation although it isn't very aesthetic.

Secondly, the actualy pronunciation of loanwords will (as in all languages) be variable from speaker to speaker, I wrote about this in Appendix:Russian_loanwords_in_Mongolian, which I intended to link in pronunciation sections of all Russian loans. Crom daba (talk) 20:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@Crom daba Fair enough! Yeah, and to clarify, it's certainly not every Mongolian speaker that pronounces these words this way, but it's the most commonly encountered pronunciation, apparently, so it would be good to note that somewhere. Having it be under Pronounciation instead would probably be best, you're right -- should I make note of this in the pronunciation sections for these words then?

Also, I would love to help add words and IPA pronunciations once I better learn how! And once I learn what the standards are, since some of the standards adopted seem to be quite different at times from the two (young and urban) speakers I'm familiar with (who, for instance, definitely pronounce the <о> vowel as [ɑ] and very much unrounded, certainly not [ɔ̙]). I can't find a page that lists these standards at the moment, so I may take a bit! TinDefacto (talk) 15:47, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

@TinDefacto: Yes, I suppose a note would be fine.

I base our Mongolian IPA on The Phonology of Mongolian by Svantesson et al, at least the broad transcription.

Your observation on <о> is interesting, I always heard it as [ɒ], but Svantesson's book and some messing around in Praat convinced me that it is a bit higher, closer to [ɔ].

I also ask you to mark narrow transcriptions with {{a|Ulaanbaatar}} on a separate line, since they usually aren't applicable to the rest on Mongolian. Crom daba (talk) 14:34, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

@Crom daba, TinDefacto: Sorry for not responding earlier. I couldn't confirm some of the claims about the pronunciation. Terms телевиз (televiz) and автобус (avtobus) are pronounced regularly according to the resources I was able to find. The audios in Bolor dictionary must be recorded by native speakers and their pronunciation is regular. A description I also find says that borrowings from Russian follow the stress as in Russian, it's probably not always the case and words are adjusted to match the Mongolian way, at least by other speakers. Please listen to "автобус" in Bolor dictionary. The stress is not too prominent but it seems to be stressed on the 2nd syllable, like in Russian and all letters are pronounced as they are written.

I agree that we need phonetic re-spellings (in the pronunciation section, not necessarily in the headword), which could be used in making future modules and templates Module:mn-pron and {{mn-IPA}} to automate the Mongolian pronunciation as much as possible. The module should with multiple pronunciations, variants, could use stress marks for irregular terms and respellings. Even marginal/rare sounds could be added just to tweak pronunciations. It is difficult to produce IPA at the moment with limited resources and lack of documentations. I am now trying to follow what Crom daba did using the pronunciations I hear in Bolor dictionary and find in books but I don't find it very consistent, so I am not 100% sure what's right.

I have changed баярлалаа (bajarlalaa) to use an unlinked баярлаа (bajarlaa) as the respelling. I think it's a wrong idea to make entries, such as баярлаа (bajarlaa) or Category:Mongolian pronunciation spellings, if they are not common misspellings.

For the use of respellings, please take a look at entries in other languages, бухга́лтер (buxgálter), မြင်းဆေး (mrang:hce:), เวียงจันทน์ (wiiang-jan), 고춧가루 (gochutgaru) (please also note here multiple respellings and IPA's).

@Crom daba, please let me know if my requests for pronunciations are not welcome. Also, re diff, I don't think that "we had a policy not to link words in example sentences". For languages with missing inflection tables and rather limited info on inflections, I'd prefer to link but I won't do this, if you really hate it. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:48, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Yeah, the pronunciation of Russian loans is very inconsistent, which is why I often avoid adding it. For example, if автобус was completely "Mongolized" we would expect something like автуувас /awtʰʊwəs/ [afˈto̙w̜ɵ̙s], but clearly this is not what is attested in Bolor.

Requests are fine, but I often have no time and sometimes I do not know how a pronunciation should be represented (especially for loans).

I have nothing against linking in examples, I used to do it myself until someone explicitly told me to stop it. Crom daba (talk) 06:24, 22 April 2019 (UTC)