Talk:mangkok

Etymology

@Mar vin kaiser Does this word have a Sinitic origin or a Proto-Malayo-Polynesian origin? I couldn't find this term in the Austronesian Comparative Dictionary. Any idea what's the original Chinese term? You might have heard that this is a vulgar term in Japan (compare unrelated まんこ). KevinUp (talk) 09:48, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: Local dictionaries say that it's a Chinese borrowing, but I can't think of any word close to "mangkok". It could be simply a Malay borrowing in Tagalog. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:03, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I think this term may have originated from Sanskrit. I noticed that almost all terms in Category:Tagalog terms derived from Sanskrit and Category:Tagalog terms borrowed from Sanskrit have Malay cognates as well. Someone proficient in Hindi/Sanskrit might be able to help. KevinUp (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta Hi. Do you know of any Sanskrit, Hindi or Indo-Aryan terms meaning "round bowl" or "cup" that sounds similar to /maŋkuk/, /maŋkoʔ/ or /maŋkok/? KevinUp (talk) 15:04, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp: I think this word is not of Indo-Aryan origin. It does not appear to be. What do you think @AryamanA? -- Bhagadatta (talk) 15:23, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80 Hi. Do you know of any Thai words that rhyme with Bangkok but refers to something similar to a round bowl, cup, or any other type of pottery? KevinUp (talk) 17:47, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing. FYI: บางกอก (Bangkok) is really from บาง (waterside village) + กอก⪤มะกอก (olive). --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:45, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

We also have มังกุ (a ship with large keel). But it does not seem to relate. --Octahedron80 (talk) 00:56, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp, Bhagadatta: I can't seem to find any Sanskrit word meaning "bowl" that sounds remotely similar to that. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 15:31, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much to all that have replied. It appears that the Chinese etymology for Tagalog/Indonesian is based on a non-existent Mandarin compound, 碗 鍋 (wǎn guō, “literally bowl and pot”) (Cantonese: wun2 wo1; Min Nan: óaⁿ-e; Reconstructed Middle Chinese reading: 碗鍋 (MC 'wanX kwa); Reconstructed Old Chinese reading: 碗鍋 (OC *qoːnʔ kloːl)) which does not match well with the pronunciation of /maŋkok/ found in Malay, Javanese, Tagalog, etc.

@Bennylin might want to take note of this and remove "mangkok (碗鍋)" from wikt:id:Wiktionary:ProyekWiki_bahasa_Indonesia/Daftar_kata/Serapan#Tionghoa and also w:id:Daftar kata serapan dari bahasa Tionghoa dalam bahasa Indonesia#M.

Anyway, according to "Tagalog Borrowings and Cognates" by Jean-Paul G. Potet [1], Tagalog mangkok is derived fom Malay mangkuk, which was reconstructed as Proto-Austronesian *maŋkok by Otto Dempwolff (1871-1938). I emailed Robert Blust (author of the Austronesian comparative dictionary) and here is his reply:

"This form has no claims to PAN status, since it is 1. unattested in any Formosan language, and 2. has a medial prenasalized consonant, and these do not occur in non-reduplicated PAN bases. Neither does it have any claims to PMP status, since it is unattested (so far at least) in CEMP languages. The word mangkuk shows distributional traits characteristic of Malay loanwords (restricted to coastal languages that have had known contacts with Malay), and my best guess at present is that it probably is a loan, although the precise source remains to be determined."

Anyway, according to this book [2], Chinese porcelain from the Tang dynasty period (618-916 AD) were found at the Bujang Valley archaeological site. This spurred me to further look up all forms of porcelainware that were listed in historical Chinese dictionaries. Finally, I came across [Term not revealed], which can be reconstructed as /*peːn qoː/ or /*peːn qoːʔ/ in Old Chinese based on the notation used by Zhengzhang Shangfang. This term is obsolete in modern Chinese, which explains the difficulty in tracing the etymological origin of mangkuk. The next step would be to consult some academic experts to confirm this hypothesis. KevinUp (talk) 17:05, 6 November 2018 (UTC)