Talk:le mien
Add topicLatest comment: 10 years ago by TAKASUGI Shinji in topic le mien (undeletion)
RFD (undeletion)
[edit]
The following information passed a request for deletion.
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
The whole set of entries (which I will unfortunately need to list in full) le mien, la mienne, les miens, les miennes, le tien, la tienne, les tiens, les tiennes, le sien, la sienne, les siens, les siennes, le nôtre, la nôtre, les nôtres, le vôtre, la vôtre, les vôtres, le leur, la leur, les leurs.
Rational: These all function as a single unit. For example, the pronoun is le mien not mien which is more like a particle because it isn't used on its own. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Keep deleted. We don't have comparable combinations in other languages either, like Dutch de mijne, Catalan el meu. —CodeCat 13:22, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Lemming principle may applicable here, per TAKASUGI Shinji in the related rfd above. If that's the case, we should undelete and keep. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 14:26, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- CodeCat I don't know how comparable those are to the French ones. But if they're idiomatic combinations, shouldn't we create them? Also as far as I know mien (et al.) aren't used without the definite article at all. Not any more anyway, I've found an 18th century use 'un sien portrait' by Voltaire. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:44, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Lemming principle may applicable here, per TAKASUGI Shinji in the related rfd above. If that's the case, we should undelete and keep. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 14:26, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Question: Is an indefinite usage of these pronouns ever possible, such as "Ils sont miens."? That actually gets a lot of Google Books hits, but I suspect that they might just be colloquial misuses that should actually have a definite article. --WikiTiki89 14:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- In Dutch, they can only be used with a definite article. "They are mine" would be either zij zijn de mijnen (“they are the mines”) (with mijnen being the plural of mijne) or zij zijn van mij (“they are of me”). —CodeCat 14:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- French also has the construction ils sont à moi (“they are to me”). I guess it only makes sense to undelete for all languages where the definite article is required, even though my personal preference would have been to have the definitions at mien et al. and to have le mien et al. be redirects. --WikiTiki89 15:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Wikitiki89 not as far as I know, and yet looking at those hits they used to be used like that! google books:"elles sont miennes" gets a lot of hits too. The hits claiming to be more modern seem to be actually modern books citing older texts. So I think the answer to your question is that it was possible but it isn't anymore, a bit like saying "mine house" in English is no longer possible, but it's the sort of thing you'll find in Chaucer. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:17, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- French also has the construction ils sont à moi (“they are to me”). I guess it only makes sense to undelete for all languages where the definite article is required, even though my personal preference would have been to have the definitions at mien et al. and to have le mien et al. be redirects. --WikiTiki89 15:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- In Dutch, they can only be used with a definite article. "They are mine" would be either zij zijn de mijnen (“they are the mines”) (with mijnen being the plural of mijne) or zij zijn van mij (“they are of me”). —CodeCat 14:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
- Restore per Renard and Anatoli Purplebackpack89 15:00, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Renard Migrant I don't understand the rationale for undeletion. Are you arguing that these phrases are not sum-of-parts? —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 01:48, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes because mien, mienne (etc.) aren't even words on their own in contemporary French. So how can le mien be sum of parts if mien isn't even a word? Except it is, not in modern French but as we can see above it did used to be used on its own. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you for the clarification. In that case, I follow Wikitiki89 and vote to undelete for languages where these possessive pronouns can only be used with a definite article immediately preceding them. If what Renard Migrant says is accurate, this includes French, but it does not include Spanish or Esperanto. If, as User:Lmaltier seems to be implying below, it is possible to say "Ils sont miens" in modern French, then this does not include French. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 13:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC) Updated 18:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC).
- You misunderstand me: these pronouns always include the definite article, i.e. these pronouns include a space. When miens is used without the article, it's not a pronoun. Lmaltier (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- So here's my current understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong): French has a set of possessive adjectives ("mien", "tien", "vôtre", etc.), which are used in modern French in sentences like "Ils sont miens.", and any such possessive adjective can be turned into a possessive pronoun with the addition of a definite article. If that is accurate, then it seems to me that the possessive pronouns are sum-of-parts—the result of combining a definite article with a possessive adjective. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 20:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, this is the way possessive pronouns are formed. Nonetheless, they are pronouns (and they are much more common than possessive adjectives, which have a literary character). I'm sure you would not want to remove them if written lemien... But this is exactly the same case. Please, don't revisit French grammar... This shows how the SOP criterion can be harmful, and why it should be fully abandoned, and changed to does this belong to the vocabulary of the language?. Lmaltier (talk) 06:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- What's the grammatical difference between "Ils n'ont pas les miens" and "Ils n'ont pas les verts"? Also if I am not mistaken, aren't there abstract nouns in French that always use the definite article? --WikiTiki89 13:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- The (very important) grammatical difference is that les miens is a pronoun. And yes, you are mistaken, there is no French noun that always use the definite article, except town names, such as Le Caire or Le Havre. Note the upper case article, showing that the article belongs to the proper name (it's lower case only when merged with a preposition, e.g. au Caire or du Havre). This is why a page Le Caire is required, and a page Caire may be very helpful, although Caire, by itself, is not a complete French word. Lmaltier (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- But les verts is also basically a pronoun. --WikiTiki89 17:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's certainly not a pronom in French. And I'm convinced it's not a pronoun either (would you call the French a pronoun???). In this case, vert may be either a noun (tous les verts de ce tableau) or an adjective (about peppers : je préfère les verts), in which case the noun is omitted, but this does not make the adjective a pronoun. Lmaltier (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- You could say the exact same thing about "mien", that it's simply an adjective (about peppers: je préfère les miens). --WikiTiki89 02:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- You are right, without the article, it's considered as a possessive adjective. But the important thing is that all grammarians consider that, with the definite article, they are possessive pronouns. You are allowed to disagree with all French specialists, to consider you know better, but there is a principle here: no original research. Lmaltier (talk) 05:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Find me a "French specialist" who will say that "les verts" is not a pronoun. Also, "no original research" is a Wikipedia principle, not a Wiktionary one. We allow original research, such as finding quotations to confirm that a word exists even if it is not in any other dictionary. --WikiTiki89 13:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry? Any specialist of French grammar. In French, the concept of pronom obviously exclude such things. The list of existing pronouns in French is a somewhat fixed list, even if may be difficult to give an exhaustive list (and try to find a specialist of English grammar stating than the green is not a pronoun...). Have a look at w:French pronouns. This page should make things clearer to you, even if some kinds of French pronouns have been forgotten (e.g. personne). About original research: I think you misinterpret this principle. On Wikipedia, it does not exclude hard work to produce good articles. It mainly requires that 1. everything should be verifiable through external sources. 2. subjects cannot be invented. As an example, if you find and demonstrate a mathematical theorem for the first time, it's verifiable, but it's original research nonetheless, because this is a subject you created yourself. These principles are applicable to Wiktionary except that, here, we don't address subjects, but words. If you create a word yourself, even with good arguments, it should be considered as original research. But we include words even when they are absent from all other dictionaries, much like Wikipedia includes many subjects absent from all other encyclopedias, provided that external sources are available. Our primary sources are word creators, our secondary sources are quotations and other dictionaries. Lmaltier (talk) 09:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- You say any specialist of French grammar would say that, and I say find me one because I don't believe you. --WikiTiki89 14:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Rather than challenging Lmaltier to prove a negative, can you prove the positive? That is, can you find a French grammarian who says "les verts" is a pronoun? - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Wikitiki89 probably talks about the DP hypothesis, which assumes determiner phrases and definite pronouns are essentially the same. But it is not the point; we discuss whether le mien should have an entry of its own, and most of us say yes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nope, not the DP hypothesis, otherwise I would have said that "les hommes" is also the same as a pronoun. The reason "les verts" is a equivalent to a pronoun is not because it is definite, but because it replaces a noun with something more generic when the identity of the noun is known, which is what a pronoun does. --WikiTiki89 16:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)*
- Once again (in this example, and when verts is an adjective), it's an ellipsis. Lmaltier (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- It is too regular and common of a formation to be an ellipsis. You could claim almost anything to be an ellipsis. --WikiTiki89 11:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Le mien cannot be an ellipsis. See my post just below. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, this is an ellipsis. This is why this construction is used only when the omitted noun has been used before or is clear from the context (it is always possible to complete the sentence with the noun). When it's not the case, then this means that what had been interpreted as an adjective is actually a noun. Lmaltier (talk) 21:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Same thing with all pronouns. You can't say "il mange des pommes" unless whoever referenced by "il" has been mentioned before or is clear from context. You can't say "je préfère les miens" unless the referenced noun has been mentioned before or is clear from context. This does not mean they are ellipses. --WikiTiki89 21:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- You can argue as much as you want, le mien is considered as a pronoun in French, and pronouns, like all other words, are accepted here. As pronouns belong to the basic vocabulary of the language, it's very important to include them. Arguing as you do may sometimes lead to a better understanding of an issue, but it's quite pointless in this case. Lmaltier (talk) 08:12, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
- Same thing with all pronouns. You can't say "il mange des pommes" unless whoever referenced by "il" has been mentioned before or is clear from context. You can't say "je préfère les miens" unless the referenced noun has been mentioned before or is clear from context. This does not mean they are ellipses. --WikiTiki89 21:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- It is too regular and common of a formation to be an ellipsis. You could claim almost anything to be an ellipsis. --WikiTiki89 11:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once again (in this example, and when verts is an adjective), it's an ellipsis. Lmaltier (talk) 19:51, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Nope, not the DP hypothesis, otherwise I would have said that "les hommes" is also the same as a pronoun. The reason "les verts" is a equivalent to a pronoun is not because it is definite, but because it replaces a noun with something more generic when the identity of the noun is known, which is what a pronoun does. --WikiTiki89 16:41, 26 July 2014 (UTC)*
- Wikitiki89 probably talks about the DP hypothesis, which assumes determiner phrases and definite pronouns are essentially the same. But it is not the point; we discuss whether le mien should have an entry of its own, and most of us say yes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:31, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
- Rather than challenging Lmaltier to prove a negative, can you prove the positive? That is, can you find a French grammarian who says "les verts" is a pronoun? - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- You say any specialist of French grammar would say that, and I say find me one because I don't believe you. --WikiTiki89 14:10, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry? Any specialist of French grammar. In French, the concept of pronom obviously exclude such things. The list of existing pronouns in French is a somewhat fixed list, even if may be difficult to give an exhaustive list (and try to find a specialist of English grammar stating than the green is not a pronoun...). Have a look at w:French pronouns. This page should make things clearer to you, even if some kinds of French pronouns have been forgotten (e.g. personne). About original research: I think you misinterpret this principle. On Wikipedia, it does not exclude hard work to produce good articles. It mainly requires that 1. everything should be verifiable through external sources. 2. subjects cannot be invented. As an example, if you find and demonstrate a mathematical theorem for the first time, it's verifiable, but it's original research nonetheless, because this is a subject you created yourself. These principles are applicable to Wiktionary except that, here, we don't address subjects, but words. If you create a word yourself, even with good arguments, it should be considered as original research. But we include words even when they are absent from all other dictionaries, much like Wikipedia includes many subjects absent from all other encyclopedias, provided that external sources are available. Our primary sources are word creators, our secondary sources are quotations and other dictionaries. Lmaltier (talk) 09:04, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Find me a "French specialist" who will say that "les verts" is not a pronoun. Also, "no original research" is a Wikipedia principle, not a Wiktionary one. We allow original research, such as finding quotations to confirm that a word exists even if it is not in any other dictionary. --WikiTiki89 13:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- You are right, without the article, it's considered as a possessive adjective. But the important thing is that all grammarians consider that, with the definite article, they are possessive pronouns. You are allowed to disagree with all French specialists, to consider you know better, but there is a principle here: no original research. Lmaltier (talk) 05:45, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- You could say the exact same thing about "mien", that it's simply an adjective (about peppers: je préfère les miens). --WikiTiki89 02:02, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's certainly not a pronom in French. And I'm convinced it's not a pronoun either (would you call the French a pronoun???). In this case, vert may be either a noun (tous les verts de ce tableau) or an adjective (about peppers : je préfère les verts), in which case the noun is omitted, but this does not make the adjective a pronoun. Lmaltier (talk) 21:20, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- But les verts is also basically a pronoun. --WikiTiki89 17:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- The (very important) grammatical difference is that les miens is a pronoun. And yes, you are mistaken, there is no French noun that always use the definite article, except town names, such as Le Caire or Le Havre. Note the upper case article, showing that the article belongs to the proper name (it's lower case only when merged with a preposition, e.g. au Caire or du Havre). This is why a page Le Caire is required, and a page Caire may be very helpful, although Caire, by itself, is not a complete French word. Lmaltier (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- What's the grammatical difference between "Ils n'ont pas les miens" and "Ils n'ont pas les verts"? Also if I am not mistaken, aren't there abstract nouns in French that always use the definite article? --WikiTiki89 13:55, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, this is the way possessive pronouns are formed. Nonetheless, they are pronouns (and they are much more common than possessive adjectives, which have a literary character). I'm sure you would not want to remove them if written lemien... But this is exactly the same case. Please, don't revisit French grammar... This shows how the SOP criterion can be harmful, and why it should be fully abandoned, and changed to does this belong to the vocabulary of the language?. Lmaltier (talk) 06:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- So here's my current understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong): French has a set of possessive adjectives ("mien", "tien", "vôtre", etc.), which are used in modern French in sentences like "Ils sont miens.", and any such possessive adjective can be turned into a possessive pronoun with the addition of a definite article. If that is accurate, then it seems to me that the possessive pronouns are sum-of-parts—the result of combining a definite article with a possessive adjective. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 20:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- You misunderstand me: these pronouns always include the definite article, i.e. these pronouns include a space. When miens is used without the article, it's not a pronoun. Lmaltier (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you for the clarification. In that case, I follow Wikitiki89 and vote to undelete for languages where these possessive pronouns can only be used with a definite article immediately preceding them. If what Renard Migrant says is accurate, this includes French, but it does not include Spanish or Esperanto. If, as User:Lmaltier seems to be implying below, it is possible to say "Ils sont miens" in modern French, then this does not include French. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 13:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC) Updated 18:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC).
- Yes because mien, mienne (etc.) aren't even words on their own in contemporary French. So how can le mien be sum of parts if mien isn't even a word? Except it is, not in modern French but as we can see above it did used to be used on its own. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:10, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- The fundamental difference is that les verts is an ellipsis of, say, les T-shirts verts, but you can’t say *les miens T-shirts. Mien cannot modify a noun in modern French. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think there is a tendency to interpret it as an ellipsis, but I don't think it is one. I think that definite article + adjective is just a regular construction. Also, you can interpret "les miens" to be an ellipsis of the archaic "les T-shirts miens", but once again, I do not think that it was in fact an ellipsis, but just a regular construction. --WikiTiki89 15:48, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
- The fundamental difference is that les verts is an ellipsis of, say, les T-shirts verts, but you can’t say *les miens T-shirts. Mien cannot modify a noun in modern French. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- undelete. This is no different from lequel, sum of le + quel. --Fsojic (talk) 16:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- undelete Yes, it's possible to write Ils sont miens. (mien is a possessive adjective in this case). Nonetheless, le mien, etc. are considered as pronouns in French (possessive pronouns). This is very clear: have a look at any French grammar (e.g. http://french.about.com/od/grammar/a/pronouns_possessive.htm). Why should you exclude some pronouns? Lmaltier (talk) 16:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC) To clarify: these possessive pronouns always include the article, the article belongs to the pronoun, this is why we must restore the pages. When mien is used without the article, it's not a pronoun, it's a possesive adjective, it's not the same word. Lmaltier (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Undelete all. The French equivalent of mine is le mien, not just mien. You can copy fr:Modèle:pronoms possessifs/fr. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:07, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
- Italian has similarities. Italian possessive adjectives, which PRECEDE nouns also mostly use definite articles (e.g. "la nostra macchina" - "our car") but there are exceptions with family members, e.g. "tua sorella" - your sister. AFTER nouns possessive adjectives don't have an article - "padre mio". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
- In examples you provide, nostra, tua and mio are possessive adjectives, one of them being used with a definite article, and none of them are pronouns. But you are right that Italian is very similar, as it is possible to use il mio as a possessive pronoun, to replace a noun. Lmaltier (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, sorry if it was off-topic. I was just mentioning it in passing. I'm undecided about Italian il mio, which is a partial equivalent of the French le mien and whether the Italian translation of mine (pronoun) should link as mio (it), il mio, (il) mio (it) or il mio. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:32, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- In examples you provide, nostra, tua and mio are possessive adjectives, one of them being used with a definite article, and none of them are pronouns. But you are right that Italian is very similar, as it is possible to use il mio as a possessive pronoun, to replace a noun. Lmaltier (talk) 09:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Restored/Created. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:34, 9 August 2014 (UTC)