Talk:diko

jī-ko or lī-ko

@Mlgc1998, Mar vin kaiser It seems to make more sense that it's from lī-ko because of the "d". Is there any evidence that this was an early borrowing rather than a relatively late one? I.e. is there attestation of this word in Tagalog from prior to the 19th century when Zhangzhou was more prominent? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:56, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Well, for one thing, the Jinjiang says 二兄, not 二哥. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Okay, that's true. I wonder if there are other loans that are clearly old but have "d" while the Hokkien etymon would have "j". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 10:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: In my opinion though, I think the "j" in Zhangzhou Hokkien wasn't a strong J, but more like a "dz" sound. So it could well become "diko". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Also, the dictionary that Mlgc1998 referenced, afaik, explicitly mentions that it's on Zhangzhou dialect in the Philippines, and it lists 二哥. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:03, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh, another point. The Tagalog word ditse is obviously from the Zhangzhou dialect "jī-ché" because Quanzhou says it like "lī-chí". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Yes, of course I know it's /dz/ in Zhangzhou. I guess these are good points that you raise, so I guess we can go with it being Zhangzhou for now. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 10:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Oh yes, I have a copy of the Dictionario Hispanico Sinicum (1604). Someone shared it to us some time ago in that groupchat. Very marvelous book. For this one, it really does say there in page 283 (of the PDF) / 261 (on the book): "hermano segundo 二哥 xy̌có" Then you can decipher the tone marks they use through Kloter's book (pages 128-129 [of the book]). The circumflex and caron is the other way round in that table tho. Other likewise similar examples of this term is diso and ditse. It's very interesting to compare this to the surname we still have quite common today like, Dy (Spanish-era Spanish orthography) and Dee (American-era English orthography), compare with Lee (American-era English orthography). Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:21, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: Thanks, but I wasn't doubting the existence of the word or its meaning. I was just doubting whether it's the Zhangzhou j version rather than the Quanzhou l version. I think Marvin's points clarified this, but it'd be nice to see if this word existed pre-migration from Jinjiang and other parts of Quanzhou. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:34, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Yeah, the source mentioned was already provided there. it says there exactly so "hermano segundo 二哥 xy̌có" from a book published in Manila, 1604. Mlgc1998 (talk) 23:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: The existence of the word in Hokkien as jī-ko doesn't tell us anything about whether the Tagalog word is borrowed from jī-ko necessarily. It just suggests it as a possibility. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:04, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Yes, Kloter's book, The Language of the Sangleys (2011), says the <J> in Zhangzhou Hokkien is "/d͡z/". See page 131, 143, and 144. The Dictionario writes this sound as "x", as per Kloter (2011). Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:37, 31 January 2022 (UTC)