Talk:alem

alem

Skok officially disproves the theory about the Tr and Arabic word meaning world. Thence I added Template:rfv-etymology. He mentions as a third theory Turkish al, red, but explicitly discourages this one:

Svakako nema nikakve veze ni s turskom riječi alem »svijet«

Bogorm 12:49, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

There are actually two different words (sharing the spelling, but different tones)

1. álem "world" (which is doubtless from Ottoman Turkish, ultimately from Arabic عالم (̔āläm, “world”), the term being spread through Islamic terminology), and
2. àlem "jewel, treasure" and also "Islamic crescent with 3 or 4 spheres underneath" according to my dictionary, also deriving from Ottoman Turkish but ultimately from Arabic علم (̔aläm, “sign, token; symbol; banner”) according to my source..

Need to check this latter one though (semantic shift doesn't look to convincing IMHO). --Ivan Štambuk 13:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, then Skok explicitly discourages from accepting the first (which is the case here). He mentiones 3 theories about the origin, so even if you find the correct Tr. word for the third theory, the possibility that it is correct still would not exceed 34%. Anyway, I am hesitating between the Greek and Old French hypothesis, they both sound convincing... You? Bogorm 13:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, definitely the relationship with Arabic word for "flag; symbol" is semasiologically inexplicable and far-fetched. However, the relationship with the supposed alaniAndina < Medieval Latin al(l)amanđina < alabandina < Alabanda (notable for its gemstones, as WP article confirms) doesn't look too convincing either. Ottoman Turkish al (“red”) (itself borrowed from Persian آل (āl, “reddish, shinning”)) OTOH looks much promising IMHO, because the same root has been preserved in various adjectives (alast, alen, alav etc.) and moreover given names (Alemka), so the most economic explanation would account it as a simple synchronic derivative of the adjective denoting "red, reddish, shiny". But none of this is fully satisfactory if you ask me. Old French is not mentioned as a source BTW, but as a identically-meaning reflex of some Romance/Middle Latin verb devised from that city's name.

So prob. all 3 theories should be mentioned with the accompanying criticism. I'll see if I can find some attestations of this and related words in some old documents. --Ivan Štambuk 14:17, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

See also comment in ARj --Ivan Štambuk 14:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)