Talk:Plants vs. Zombies

RFD discussion: October–November 2024

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

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Plants vs. Zombies

Minecraft

Not dictionary material. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 13:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Minecraft exists and Wiktionary:CFI doesn't contain a specific rule for names of video games, so I thought Plants vs. Zombies was allowed. Sorry for the mistake.
Minecraft can be deleted for the same reason (unless there's a good reason for it to be dictionary material). --Davi6596 (talk) 14:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• Delete: terms like this need to satisfy WT:BRAND, and I doubt that Plants vs. Zombies is used in a figurative sense. I would say the same for the noun sense of Minecraft (which I've thus nominated for deletion), though the verb sense is fine. — Sgconlaw (talk) 18:43, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Should we bundle Super Smash Bros. 4, Roblox and Doom as well? LunaEatsTuna (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Personally, yes, as I don’t see how WT:BRAND is satisfied. Alternatively, if it is thought that one or more of these entries might satisfy BRAND, send those to RFV. — Sgconlaw (talk) 22:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Super Smash Bros. 4 is in a different category since it's not an official term. AG202 (talk) 13:30, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't read that part, forgive me. Now I support deleting the entry. Davi6596 (talk) 23:02, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

• I've added three cites to Minecraft which potentially contribute to it meeting WT:BRAND. The mentioned entries should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and I consider RfV to be a better platform for challenging the inclusion of terms for which stricter attestation criteria (WT:BRAND, WT:FICTION, WT:COMPANY) apply. Einstein2 (talk) 23:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
• Keep Minecraft, since that seems similar to other brand names like Google, Instagram, etc. Having the verb sense kept without the proper noun looks incomplete. Minecraft is also a single unspaced word (thus the entry also contains good lexical stuff like the etymology) unlike phrases like Plants vs. Zombies, and it having a verb sense definitely shows that it is more inclusion-worthy. Weak keep Roblox based on the same - it looks it also has a verb sense like Minecraft after looking through a quick Google search. Strong delete others like Super Smash Bros. 4 and Plants vs. Zombies. --Svartava (talk) 17:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  Fair enough. Davi6596 (talk) 18:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Svartava: I disagree that the existence of a qualifying sense (like the verb sense of Minecraft) means a non-qualifying sense can remain in an entry. WT:CFI doesn’t contain a “kitchen-sink” rule like this. The appropriate way to refer to the non-qualifying sense is in the etymology section. — Sgconlaw (talk) 19:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Sgconlaw: I don't disagree. The example was comparing how other such proper nouns like Google, Facebook, WhatsApp, etc. function well as inclusion-worthy verbs and we have kept their proper noun senses as well - being used as a verb surely indicates use as a common word in the words on WT:COMPANY. --Svartava (talk) 20:11, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Svartava: But that's what I mean. The fact that a word like Facebook has become a common word with noun and verb senses should not, as I have expressed above, justify the kitchen-sink approach of "OK, then we can include the proper noun sense as well." The proper noun sense belongs in the etymology section. In any case, Minecraft isn't a company so WT:COMPANY doesn't apply to it. The applicable policy is WT:BRAND. — Sgconlaw (talk) 22:13, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Sgconlaw But we have kept the proper noun senses at Facebook, Instagram, etc. and those cases look similar to Minecraft here. Either we could propose the deletion of all these proper nouns if they're added due to the kitchen-sink approach. Svartava (talk) 13:49, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Svartava: I see no evidence that the proper noun senses have been "kept"; rather, it seems that no one has challenged their existence. I think the correct approach is to nominate these senses for RFD so that the matter can be discussed. — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Sgconlaw: Yes, though there seem to be a lot of entries like this in Category:en:Websites. I'm not entirely sure yet but it seems that there are abundant "independent citations" out there as required by WT:BRAND. I'd be just neutral in case the deletion of all terms like Facebook, Instagram, Minecraft is collectively proposed. Svartava (talk) 17:50, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  That category contains some phrasal proper names tho. Davi6596 (talk) 22:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Delete proper noun sections at Minecraft and Plants vs. Zombies. I agree wholly with Sgconlaw here. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 16:07, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

What are the conditions for a deletion request to pass? --Davi6596 (talk) 16:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Davi6596: A month or more should pass before closing and generally two-third voters should have voted delete (i.e. number of deletes should be the double of keeps). I've deleted Plants vs. Zombies. Minecraft's proper noun sense can be deleted too (since the whole page is not going to be deleted which any non-admin can also do that) but it may require more restructuring/reorganizing. – Svārtava (tɕ) 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I support keeping Minecraft, Facebook, Instagram, Roblox, Google, etc. for being brands and having derivations (e.g. Minecraftian, Instagrammer, Robloxian, to google). Davi6596 (talk) 18:56, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Davi6596 You cannot vote twice on the same issue and this contradicts your 2 October vote above. You should probably strike that vote if you have changed your mind. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:29, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no contradiction here. My October 2 vote was only about Plants vs. Zombies, not the other entries; otherwise, I would've said "the entries" instead of "the entry". Today's vote was about the other entries mentioned in this topic. Davi6596 (talk) 19:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

• Keep, because in Minecraft uses Minecraft in an inarguably figurative sense, and that is what WT:BRAND is asking for. This applies to in Roblox if we go for that too. —Soap— 20:19, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

  i see now that there is no explicit mention of the requirement of figurative use in the WT:BRAND section (though there is in the placename section), so Im not sure what the people arguing for deletion are basing their rationale on. Sgconlaw seems to have made the same mistake as me and the other delete votes mostly echo him. If there is no requirement for figurative use I dont think these deletion arguments hold water. —Soap— 18:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've seen Minecraft used as a verb, as an allusion to the construction "do x in Minecraft", which I think would deserve an entry. As it stands, delete. MCPE is questionable too. ScribeYearling (talk) 13:34, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Delete Minecraft and the terms mentioned by user Svartva (i.e., the terms with additional dictionary-worthy senses) — I agree with user Sgconlaw in that the connection to the original proper noun is not only better placed in the Etymology section, but also results in more insightful etymologies. Strong delete Super Smash Bros. 4, Doom, and other terms with no derivations that can be considered dictionary material. Polomo47 (talk) 01:01, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction: weak delete Super Smash Bros. 4. I’m not sure how far we go with including fan names, because we have DDLC and CoD, but not, say, AC, GI, MGS. I think a really large number of games can have "fan names" in the form of acronyms, so would this also result in adding entries for, like, every popularish video game title? What separates SSB4, DDLC, CoD from the rest?

Still in favor of mentioning the proper nouns Minecraft and Roblox only in Etymology sections; it is already good pratice to gloss terms when listed in etymologies, rather than simply linking to them. Thus, I'm against the argument that having a proper noun sense does anything to streamline etymology sections of derived terms.

I say this, also, on the basis that the current arguments in favor of Minecraft’s proper noun sense all appear to base themselves on there being figurative derivations of the term, such as a verb form and the construction in Minecraft. These shouldn't serve to support the proper noun sense, since Minecraft doesn’t have any meanings related to filter-avoidance outside of the latter case. To be honest, I'm not sure what kind of citation would qualify for WT:BRAND in my view — surely usage like "I like to play Minecraft" doesn't serve for anything, because that usage occurs for literally every videogame. Polomo47 (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Strong keep for Minecraft and Roblox. These clearly pass the WT:BRAND threshold. Both are linguistically productive. We have entries for multiple derived terms: Minecraftian, in Minecraft, Robloxian, etc. It's simpler having a concise definition of Minecraft to direct readers to than to repeat an explanation of Minecraft in every single Minecraft-related entry.

Week keep for Super Smash Bros. 4. This is not an official title of a video game. It's a fan-coined nickname for two games formally titled Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. I probably wouldn't have created this entry, but I don't see a cause for binning it. There's a precedent for having entries for fan nicknames for creative works (e.g. Trek, Who, etc.). WordyAndNerdy (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Keep Minecraft & Roblox for WT:BRAND. And keep Super Smash Bros. 4 per our current policies since it's not an official name. AG202 (talk) 14:22, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Keep Minecraft and Roblox per Soap, weak keep Super Smash Bros. 4 per WordyAndNerdy. Juwan (talk) 18:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• RFD-kept for Minecraft, RFD-deleted Plants vs. Zombies. Reopen if disagree. Svartava2 (talk) 19:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)