Talk:𒆍𒀭𒊏𒆠

Pronunciation

Do we know how Classical Syriac Bāḇel was pronounced? Is ḇ [w]? It would fit well with բաւեղ (baweł, “labyrinth”). --Vahag (talk) 20:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

It is [v], but after looking in Category:Old Armenian terms derived from Classical Syriac to find words with ւ (w), I found կաքաւ (kakʻaw) which is from ܩܩܒܐ (qaqqəḇā) according to the entry, so for բաւեղ (baweł) borrowing from Classical Syriac may be a possibility from phonological aspect (maybe from a dialectal form of Bāḇel; [v] can change to [w] through approximation process). --Z 21:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Both /av/ and /aw/ would have been reflected as -աւ (-aw). վ (v) and ւ (w) stand in complementary distribution ?— the first is used word-initially and after ո (o), the second in all other environments. So the Syriac word is a good fit. --Vahag (talk) 07:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Reference request

• @Vahagn Petrosyan: Would you be able to provide a reference for this word? Thanks. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:16, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

I added a couple. --Vahag (talk) 10:29, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks! —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:00, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Images request

@Jberkel: Can you please produce an image for this? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:00, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Old Babylonian font

Neo-Assyrian font

 Done I created it in two fonts, but in this case you should probably use the Old Babylonian one. --WikiTiki89 21:00, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! (Do you want to be pinged in future to help with images?) —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:49, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

I created a small python script to automatically produce images for these entries (and upload them to commons), so it's really easy for me to do. What I still need is a list of preferred fonts for each script. – Jberkel (talk) 12:54, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@Jberkel: That's a great idea, I don't know why I didn't think of that. And here I was, using Paint.NET. What library do you use, PIL? As for fonts, you can look at MediaWiki:Common.css, although the fonts listed there are not always the best (and sometimes an otherwise good font is excluded because it doesn't support all the necessary characters, but would still be sufficient for creating these FWOTD images). It's a complicated question I guess. I assume you have a Mac, because your Syriac font is the same as on my iPhone; I noticed that Apple recently expanded its font support for many less popular and ancient scripts and the ones I've seen are pretty suitable.

@Metaknowledge: Yeah, feel free to ping both of us, even if Jberkel beats me to uploading the file, I can verify that the font looks right. --WikiTiki89 14:53, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: Yes, I use PIL and it works really well. I use a Mac but got the Syriac font from Google Noto, some of these might be bundled with Android (and iOS?) now. The fonts have a permissive license but the quality is varied. Jberkel (talk) 15:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Oh they're Google fonts... I knew Apple couldn't be so competent. --WikiTiki89 15:16, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: Actually, it turned out to be more work than I expected. PIL is not useful since it doesn't do text shaping (needed for Arabic and Syriac). I ended up using Python bindings for Pango/Cairo which build on top of Harfbuzz, the shaping library also used in Firefox/Chrome. – Jberkel (talk) 02:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)

Kan and Bab

The current version claims this is a loan translation, meaning that what is written is read Kan Dinirak, then translated into Accadian to mean "Bab Illim", which in turn semantically (in English) means the gate of The God (Ill). And that the reason for this writing is only the akkadian sounding of the city name, but not the original meaning of the name "Babbel".

I wish to propose that Kan Dinirak meant the base of god.

The base like the stand, from standing up, the Hebrew verb nokwn נכון in the present tense, hikwn היכון - in the future. (pronounced a bit differently in modern Hebrew), and the objects kan כַּן - a base, and mokwn - a foundation.

Such as in the biblical:

הָאָֽרֶץ	יֹשְׁבֵ֣י	אֶ֖ל כׇּל	הִשְׁגִּ֑יחַ	שִׁבְתּ֥וֹ	מִֽמְּכוֹן
ho-or$	yosz-ve	el--kol	hi-shgyH	sziv-to	Mi-mkwn
the-earth	sitting	at--all	he-sighted	seat-of-his	from BASE

(Notice "el" here means to or at, not the deity name): From the BASE of your seat he watched at all seated (of) the earth.

מִֽמְּכוֹן שִׁבְתּ֥וֹ הִשְׁגִּ֑יחַ אֶ֖ל כׇּל יֹשְׁבֵ֣י הָאָֽרֶץ

Or another example: vle-eloh mouzim al

וְלֶאֱלֹ֨הַּ֙ מָֽעֻזִּ֔ים עַל כַּנּ֖וֹ יְכַבֵּ֑ד

Caption text

יְכַבֵּ֑ד	כַּנּ֖וֹ	עַל	מָֽעֻזִּ֔ים	וְלֶאֱלֹ֨הַּ֙
y-kabd	kan-o	oal	mo-ouzim	v-le-El-oh
he'll-respect	BASE-of-his (self)	on	strengths	and-to-god-his (of)

And I propose that this in turn is a correct literal translation to the original name where Bob (bov), the opening sylable of Bab-el, was from the underworld BASE of the god EL, similar to the Hebrew Ov, also the name of the Baylonian month of OV.

In the book of kings:

וְיִדְּעֹנִ֑ים	א֖וֹב	וְעָ֥שָׂה	וְנִחֵ֔שׁ	וְעוֹנֵ֣ן	בָּאֵ֔שׁ	אֶת בְּנוֹ֙	וְהֶעֱבִ֤יר
w-yiduo-ni	OV	w-uosxo	w-niHsz	w-uonen	b-o-esz	et-bn-o	v-he-evir
and-idea-maker	UP (bringing)	and-made(he)	and-snaked	and-clouded	in-the-ash	the-son-his	and-over-he

וְהֶעֱבִ֤יר אֶת בְּנוֹ֙ בָּאֵ֔שׁ, וְעוֹנֵ֣ן וְנִחֵ֔שׁ, וְעָ֥שָׂה א֖וֹב וְיִדְּעֹנִ֑ים

Pashute (talk) 11:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I deleted your edit, but added the Neo-Assyrian cuneiform image to the actual Akkadian entry 𒆍𒀭𒊏𒆠 (Bābilim). As I wrote on the edit summary, you can have all Akkadian entries in Neo-Assyrian cuneiform by setting up your personal common.css to use a font like Assurbanipal as default for Akkadian cuneiform.

As for your theory, I think you misinterpreted the explanation in the etymology section (which should probably be reworded. It could be clearer...).

The city was called Bābilim, and Akkadian speaking people thought the etymology of that name was "bāb-ilim" ("the gate of god" in Akkadian), therefore they "translated" it into Sumerian (the most prestigious literary language of the time) as 𒆍𒀭𒊏𒆠 (kan dig̃irak, “gate of good”). "Kan-dig̃irak" is a Sumerian translation of the Akkadian for "gate of god". It's not Akkadian, so it doesn't make much sense to try and use Hebrew to understand what those Sumerian sounds might have originally meant... Sumerian and Hebrew are not sister languages. Sumerian is a language isolate and has no connections to Akkadian or Hebrew whatsoever. Sartma (talk) 12:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)