Talk:撇

Hakka

@H2NCH2COOH Hi, may I ask where did you obtain the pronunciation phet for Sixian Hakka? And 客家方言标准音词典 which records Meixian Hakka glosses 撇 as a marker of perfective aspect. The word that marks full extent is instead qiu1 (written as 秋). Were you basing you edit on Meixian Hakka or another dialect of Hakka? RcAlex36 (talk) 12:48, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I didn't notice this expression was not actually used in Sixian, and I deduced its "corresponding" pronunciation using Meixian dialect. The pseudo-Sixian pronunciation is now removed. I am not sure what's the differences between these "markers", but I believe they both express the meaning of "full extents" but appear in subtly different contexts. For example, "to eat up" can be 食撇 or 食秋撇 (with the latter emphasizing nothing is left; but 食撇 implies nothing is left either), but 食秋 alone would be awkward. I confirmed the first definition in two sources:

1. 张维耿, 客家话词典: 1. 表示动作已经完成; 2. 表示变化已经完成
2. 罗美珍 et. al., 客家话通用词典: <虚化动> 用在动词或形容词后面作补语，表示“弃失”“完尽”意义

客家话词典 actually gives four definitions but I dropped the 3rd and the 4th because I believe they are essentially the same as the 2nd. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 13:53, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: So one definition should be "Used after a verb to indicate perfective aspect (action completion)." right? And for your information, the corresponding Sixian word is 忒 (tedˋ). RcAlex36 (talk) 14:04, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes. I just noticed that this word is also used after words without "extents" but still implies completion, so the perfective aspect would be more accurate. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 14:15, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: Is it accurate to say Hakka 秋 corresponds to Mandarin 光 and Cantonese 晒? RcAlex36 (talk) 14:19, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I think so. At first, I thought 撇 is similar to 嗮 (where I copied the Cantonese def), but yes, 秋 is more similar. One difference is 食嗮, 做嗮, etc. are complete, but 食秋, 做秋 would sound awkward and are usually followed by 撇; plus, when expressing past tense, Cantonese is like 食咗嗮, while Hakka is 食秋撇了/欸. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 14:26, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: Also, why is it 尋無(mo4)到 instead of 尋毋(m2)到 in the example sentence you have addd? RcAlex36 (talk) 14:36, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

I think they are the same? But to be honest I am not quite familiar with this language despite it being spoken by the rest of my family. If you are sure this is a wrong expression, feel free to replace it. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 14:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: I asked because Taiwan MoE has 做毋著 (I think 著 is the wrong character; it should be 到). I also cannot find mo4 in the Hakka dictionaries I have access to. Also 客贛方言調查報告 has cot5𠊎唔(m2)到(dau4) for 騙不了我 under Meixian. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:50, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

The two forms are only interchangeable when used with 尋. Or maybe they aren't actually. My grandma uses both if I recall correctly, but I could be wrong, or such usage may be uncommon. Maybe I should use the one that I can guarantee accuracy. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 15:42, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: Is there a way to check the example with your family? I also wonder if you're sure 撇 is used with 尋 in the way it is in the example sentence. I'm not a native speaker of Hakka, but from what I can tell, it's not quite used like Mandarin 了, which is what seems to be happening in the example sentence. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:13, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: They are not exactly the same, but it does have similar usages to 了. Can be attested in 客家方言 by 温昌衍 et.al.. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 17:53, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: I don't seen an example of 尋 used with 撇 in 温昌衍 et al., though. Do you have a particular example that you're basing the example sentence on, or did you just make it up? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:17, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: Did you actually checked? There are more than one example of 撇 used in such way, e.g. "霜降在月头，卖撇棉被来买牛……" "省了一尺布，去撇一条裤" "捡到一条腰带，了撇一个身家" "讲得三国来，豆腐烧撇一镬" "佢踢撇涯唔知几多欸" "涯寻撇你三四摆都寻唔到" "嗰本书涯看撇三转"... --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 18:54, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH: Maybe the version I have is not complete? I couldn't find 涯寻撇你三四摆都寻唔到. Which page is it on? I would just cite this version instead of trying to use 转 in case it's not idiomatic to use 转 instead of 摆 here. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:41, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Kindle version so not sure about pages. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 08:46, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

擺 simply means time(s), but here 轉 would emphasizes the action of “moving around” more. See [1] [2] [3] for examples of 轉 used as a quantifier. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 08:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung 涯寻撇你三四摆都寻唔到 is on p. 132. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:16, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

@H2NCH2COOH, RcAlex36: Thanks. I still think just quoting directly would be best because none of us are native speakers and should not really be making sentences up. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:39, 19 April 2022 (UTC)