Talk:化人

Arte de la Lengua Chiõ Chiu

@Mlgc1998 Did you mean this page? If so, it seems to be part of a larger phrase 化人筆. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:55, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, this book is describing a dialect of Zhangzhou in the 17th century, which would be quite different from Philippine Hokkien as it stands now, which is mostly a Jinjiang-based dialect. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:01, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: There's a better online copy of that book here in the University of Barcelona, since it's currently kept in Spain for some reason. Colonial-era Philippine Hokkien has many layers of history throughout the centuries. The original, of course, was likely based on a Quanzhou dialect, since Quanzhou was Manila's traditional trading partner in the Maritime Silk Road connecting to the Manila-Acapulco Galleon trade and Veracruz-Seville Spanish treasure fleet trade during the Tang, Song, and Ming dynasties where all the Spanish silver and chinaware exchanged to fuel the Ming and Qing economies and the chinaware and spice distribution across the Americas and Europe. Rizal's great great grandfather in the 1600s basically had this sort of descent and the Chinese illustrations and labels in the Boxer Codex were from Ming dynasty times consistent with these chinese terminologies and placenames, but during Qing dynasty times around the 1700s-1800s, the traditional trading partner shifted to Zhangzhou and old families today like the still currently prominent landed Cojuangco family, of which Pres. Cory and Noynoy descend from, are also descended from that old line of Zhangzhou dialect speakers that this book likely recorded from. It's only in around 20th century when prominence from Zhangzhou shifted to Xiamen and migration patterns in the Philippines also shifted to mostly Quanzhou and some from Xiamen and sparse few from Zhangzhou. This shift is likely the reason why Philippine Hokkien is highly Quanzhou-based, but that book is where we can dissect where the fragments of the old Zhangzhou layer is hidden in. There's also another side of this with the more mysterious minority taishanese or cantonese from Guangzhou and Macau. 化人 is also written on the Selden Map, which is presumed by Robert Batchelor, the man who discovered it again few years ago, that the map was possibly made by someone from, or at least transited Manila. You can read more about his findings on the map from here, and what he says from a foreign perspective does seem to match when you look at it from an early 1600s Chinese filipino perspective that he's supposing it comes from. The Selden Map uses the some of the same chinese labels used in the Boxer Codex, such as 玳瑁, and it is presumed by Batchelor to have been made in the early 1600s which I think was made just a few decades apart from each other with Boxer Codex in the late 1500s and Selden Map in the early 1600s. I presume the multiple other old spanish document books, I've heard but not yet looked into, written in the time period will also have the same consistency connections, since I know it seems the Bahay Tsinoy Museum in Intramuros already seems to know much of this and is probably way ahead of me on this. I had a brief talk with the daughter of the owner professor of the foundation who owns the museum, since she seems to closely moderate their Facebook page and she mentioned that old folks today born from around the 1930s still used this term and she seems to think that this term came about because the chinese here thought of the spaniards as some sort of two-faced scheming trickster people tho I initially was wondering if the term came about cuz the spaniards wanted to make themselves seem more like cultured, enlightened, or civilized people compared to everyone else, tho today I'm sensing that use of the term is slowly dissipating now which might be something the pre-boomer silent generation might still use and the baby boomer generation might sparsely use, since we don't normally talk about spaniards a lot anymore these days. Bahay Tsinoy museum told me actually that they're currently in the midst of researching early 20th century American colonial period chinese filipino life. The museum researcher I talked to told me she read the book, Lagalag sa Nanyang (the book introduction is written in English with Mandarin transposition of Hokkien terms but the rest of the content is in Filipino(tagalog)), in order to study the life perspective of an early 1900s chinese filipino, who today have probably recently died or dying in old age sadly. Since it seems they got this idea of 化人 being the Spaniards from the Selden Map, I peered into it more and the chinese labels beside the map about the Philippines does describes the 化人 as "化人畜在此", then I can't read the next blurred line beside it except 呂宋 referring to the Philippines or at least the whole main island of Luzon. From what that line means, I'm supposing they probably did not have a good viewpoint of the Spaniards and were trying to warn other chinese merchant traders of the Spaniards controlling this place. Batchelor also pinpoints the relative date range it was probably made because they mentioned the presence of the 化人("化人住") and 紅毛("紅毛住") (and "万老高" for the natives, which I presume from a hokkien perspective might actually be another way to say 万老猴) in Ternate island, which Batchelor believes to be when the Spaniards and Dutch decided to jointly occupy Ternate island in the Moluccas(present-day Maluku) Spice Islands after kicking out the Portuguese. The Spaniards retreated from Ternate after Koxinga's threats to invade and sack Manila after kicking the Dutch out from Taiwan, who previously kicked out the Spaniards too from Taipei. Koxinga was mad before about Spanish actions in the Sangley massacre ("rebellion") during the past years and him taking up the authority of the Ming dynasty who previously was too busy at the time from being taken out by the invading Manchu Qing dynasty. The spaniards harbored a lot of suspicion or discrimination back then, mainly cuz of threats of chinese(by Koxinga) or japanese(by Shogun Toyotomi Hideyoshi, resultant winner of the Sengoku Jidai and igniter of the Imjin war) invasion and pirate attacks decades prior by chinese pirate, Limahong, and japanese Wokou pirate raiding and smuggling. Binondo today was moved and built on where it is today right in front of the crosshairs of cannons atop the Intramuros city walls. And the implications of the Spanish retreat from Ternate resulted in the Dutch finally having supremacy over the Spice islands which today is part of Indonesia, and there is also a place south of Metro Manila called "Ternate" as well because the natives of Ternate who volunteered to aid the Spaniards came with them and settled there and today they are one of the few endangered and dissipating Chavacano de Ternate speakers left there, also the Moro conquest by the Spaniards got prolonged into American times due to their retreat and now they still do a lot of insurgency. The Selden Map today also tells much about the south china sea / west philippine sea disputes, since it mentions matters about the Paracel islands and maybe also vaguely about the Spratlys and Scarborough shoal, so that has a lot of geopolitical weight. It's hard to read the blurring chinese text tho, which I presume was written from a Hokkien perspective since the center of the trade routes converges by Quanzhou which Batchelor believes that the trade routes were measured and sketched first before everything else and the number of placenames for the Philippines and Vietnam makes for a lot of central attention and inside knowledge tho in general, there's a lot of intricacy on the trade routes across the whole of maritime southeast asia sea lanes, which Batchelor mentions a lot in his study here. The sea trade routes are still very relevant today as modern shipping routes all still use roughly the same paths, which you can see here. The historical Urdaneta Tornaviaje trade route map in the pacific tradewind ocean currents routes in the Manila-Acapulco Galleon trade also explains a lot for how the distribution of overseas chinese around the Pacific like Philippines, Indonesia, Japan, Guam, Hawaii, Mexico, Peru, Cuba, US, Canada, etc. all get their earliest overseas chinese arrivals(via working or stowing aboard as cabin crew) using the Volta do mar(Portuguese) or Vuelta del Mar(Spanish) sailing techniques that the Portuguese and Spaniards perfected in their sea explorations. That route also explains the root of a lot of history across the different Pacific countries like the economic history in recent centuries for most all the money currencies across east and southeast asia, and the factors for the decline of the Ming dynasty as to how the Qing managed to slowly encroach on the northern provinces since the coastal provinces received more silver in the economy thus were generally less poor while the others were more willing to submit to the Qing's rise, and also one of the main igniters to the Christian persecutions in Japan due to the San Felipe Incident, all as part of actions connecting back to the 化人, the 佛郎機, the 紅毛, and later the 花旗仔.--Mlgc1998 (talk) 23:41, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Obsolete

@Mar vin kaiser, Mlgc1998 Should we label this as obsolete? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:59, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yup, I made it obsolete. Also edited it as noun instead of proper noun. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:54, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Confusing structure

(Notifying Atitarev, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c, Justinrleung, Mar vin kaiser, Geographyinitiative, RcAlex36, The dog2, Frigoris, 沈澄心, 恨国党非蠢即坏, Michael Ly): Could somebody please improve the structure of this article? Etymology should be the primary divider of a page; having both numbered L3 pronunciations and (numbered) L3 etymologies is strange. Fytcha (talk) 20:16, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fytcha: Thanks for noting this. Fixed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:03, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thank you. Fytcha (talk) 21:04, 2 December 2021 (UTC)