Talk:劗肉
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The sense of 剃頭 ("to have a haircut") is given in 上海话大词典, but I'm not sure if it's dated or where it's used. It's definitely plausible since the 玉篇 entry for 劗 gives 「鬀髮也」 ("to cut/shave hair"). Additionally, the 集韻 states that 「吳人謂髠髮爲劗」 which means something like "Wu people call the punishment shaving of a man's head as 劗." But I'm having trouble finding references for this sense; searching up the term 劗肉 just brings up a lot of results for 大劗肉, which is apparently a dialectical word for 獅子頭 lion's head meatballs. ChromeGames923 (talk) 16:08, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
- @ChromeGames923: I'm not sure if this is the right avenue for the questions you have. Since Wu is not a WT:WDL, the verification process is looser, and the entry in 上海话大词典 would be good enough for passing verification. That said, I cannot find this sense in other dictionaries. In 上海方言詞典, the definitions are 切肉 (cut meat) and 剁肉 (chop up meat), which are probably more appropriately one definition, as we have it in the first sense. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 00:38, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- 上海市区方言志 (p. 207) only has 切肉 and 剁肉 as well. It doesn't list 劗肉 as a synonym under 剃头 (p. 184) — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 00:51, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Thanks for pointing out the verification difference, and I really appreciate you checking those two dictionaries. I just realized that 上海方言詞典 is organized by pronunciation, so I should really reference it more. It's not immediately clear to me how 上海市区方言志 is organized though. As for the haircut definition, do you think it makes sense to keep? Considering that it doesn't show up anywhere else, I reckon the sense is at least rare or old. (I also notice you added some other definitions to the page, that explains why the term kept giving me meatballs.) Thanks, ChromeGames923 (talk) 08:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- I think the haircut sense could be kept, but I'll also ask the opinion of editors who might be a little more familiar with Wu. @Thedarkknightli, Shen233, 辛时雨, any thoughts?
- 上海市区方言志 is organized by semantic domains. 上海方言詞典 is a good resource as well, but its pronunciation is 老派, so it doesn't necessarily match the system we use here in
{{zh-pron}}, which is based on 中派. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:02, 31 August 2021 (UTC)- 劗肉 is in the dialectical synonyms under 理髮 for Shanghainese, so interesting. Personally I never used that word to mean haircut, but digging around it seems 劗 itself has the sense of haircut in Kangxi Dictionary, one such usage is in 玉篇 as it is previously mentioned, https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%8A%97, so it definitely meant that at least in the past. I'm not too sure where wiktionary gets the dialectical synonyms from, but they seems credible. I crossed checked with baidu and other chinese forums relating to Shanghainese and there is little to nothing about 劗肉 being haircut, so I'm leaning toward the argument that it's currently dated or obsolete.Shen233 (talk) 17:33, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shen233: Thanks! The word is in the synonym table for 理髮 because it was added by @ChromeGames923, who started this RFV. I think it was only based on 上海话大词典. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:40, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- Yes that's right, sorry I should have mentioned I added it at the same time! ChromeGames923 (talk) 23:24, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Shen233: Thanks! The word is in the synonym table for 理髮 because it was added by @ChromeGames923, who started this RFV. I think it was only based on 上海话大词典. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 17:40, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- 劗肉 is in the dialectical synonyms under 理髮 for Shanghainese, so interesting. Personally I never used that word to mean haircut, but digging around it seems 劗 itself has the sense of haircut in Kangxi Dictionary, one such usage is in 玉篇 as it is previously mentioned, https://www.zdic.net/hans/%E5%8A%97, so it definitely meant that at least in the past. I'm not too sure where wiktionary gets the dialectical synonyms from, but they seems credible. I crossed checked with baidu and other chinese forums relating to Shanghainese and there is little to nothing about 劗肉 being haircut, so I'm leaning toward the argument that it's currently dated or obsolete.Shen233 (talk) 17:33, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung: Thanks for pointing out the verification difference, and I really appreciate you checking those two dictionaries. I just realized that 上海方言詞典 is organized by pronunciation, so I should really reference it more. It's not immediately clear to me how 上海市区方言志 is organized though. As for the haircut definition, do you think it makes sense to keep? Considering that it doesn't show up anywhere else, I reckon the sense is at least rare or old. (I also notice you added some other definitions to the page, that explains why the term kept giving me meatballs.) Thanks, ChromeGames923 (talk) 08:23, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
- RFV failed. Even though this is found in 上海话大词典, because of the doubt that the dictionary tried to fit in a sense based on older dictionaries, and because native speakers seem to not have heard of this term (based on the discussion above and also confirmed by someone that @ND381 asked via Discord), the reliability of 上海话大词典 as the sole source is questioned and cannot be used for verification. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 22:58, 16 February 2022 (UTC)