Talk:აღცრაჲ

Georgian verbs

@კვარია, Solarkoid, have I lemmatized this correctly? On the problem of lemmatizing Georgian verbs in dictionaries see Gippert. Vahag (talk) 18:55, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I wanna get Kvaria's view on this since I would like to move this to აღცრაჲ (aɣcray). It would be nice if we did "verbal noun of X" but I don't know its present form and I'm thinking of making the verbal noun the main lemma? I don't know... Solarkoid (talk) 19:06, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree on აღცრაჲ (aɣcray), I should have put it that way in the first place tbh but I tend to forget the OGE -ჲ. Also I agree on making the verbal noun the main lemma because it will reduce "from Proto-Georgian-Zan/Proto-Kartvelian blahblah" spa კვარია (talk) 19:51, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Ok, so I shall move this to აღცრაჲ (aɣcray). Should the header be "Verbal noun" and the headword {{head|oge|verbal noun}}? Should the definitions be "to sift; to scatter" or "sifting; scattering"? Vahag (talk) 20:13, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

That's a good question... I'd like the definitions to be with English infinitives but the header... Actually this needs more discussion. @კვარია, Vahagn Petrosyan there are several problems with this: 1) In Old Georgian, as Shanidze separates, (I'm gonna have to look at the German source) i) for transitive verbs we have 2 types of verbal nouns: standard -a & -n-a used before consonant v mainly (h-pov-eb-s -> pov-n-a-y). ii) For intransitive verbs we have: -om- (jd-i-s -> jd-om-a-y), -ol- (h-brdz-av-s -> brdz-ol-a-y), s- (rb-i-s -> s-rb-a-y) and ambiguous ones si--il (h-msh-iis -> si-msh-il-i - mainly means hunger), si--ul (u-xar-is -> si-xar-ul-i OR possibly xar-eb-a-y (< a-xar-eb-s)), and less commonly si--ol- (si-vlt-ol-a-y). For transitive verbs it's pretty straightforward but for intransitive verbs it's kinda icky except for s- type. brdz-ol-a-y can mean just a battle. si-xar-ul-i happiness, etc... 2) One verbal noun can be for several verbs: she-wux-eb-a-y is for she-a-wux-eb-s AND she-wux-n-eb-i-s... So yeah... -Solarkoid (talk) 09:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

... which reminds me of Mingrelian ტყოლუა (ṭq̇olua) that I created with which I wasn't happy with, so I just gave up because I didn't want to open this can of worms. >_< კვარია (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Worms or not, the can has to be opened. This is an important matter. Whatever you come up with needs to be encoded at Wiktionary:Lemmas. Vahag (talk) 15:51, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I honestly don't know how to decide... There are a lot of options but every one of them lacks some aspect I want to present. The safest bet for Modern Georgian was setting subject and object(s) to 3rd person and putting the present screeve. That could be done with old Georgian too, but IDK. What are your thoughts on doing the same thing as Modern Georgian. Oh and also how do we deal with the boundary between the noun and the verbal noun intransitive verbs seem to lack: si-msh-il-i - being hungry OR hunger. Even can of worms seems like a better thing to open than this... -Solarkoid (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Georgian grammar and can't help you, but you can decide to follow what other Georgian dictionaries do. Gippert discusses their approaches to verb lemmatization in the article I linked above. Vahag (talk) 20:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)