Talk:ओकणे

@Kutchkutch Thank you for adding the nadugannada term! Where did you find it? DerekWinters (talk) 18:57, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@DerekWinters: On [1] it says

[का. ओक्क- रिसु = ओकणें; प्रा. ओक्किअ; सिं. ओकणू; तुल॰ सं. आवच्- आऊक-ओक; आवचनं-ओकणें (बोलणें). -भाअ १८३४; सं. उद्गिर्; प्रा. उग्गिर-भांडारकर]

User:माधवपंडित put the Modern Kannada term as 'ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸುವುದು' at उकणे.

So I thought 'का. ओक्क- रिसु = ओकणें' refers to Nadugannada rather than Kannada. Perhaps I'm wrong and this is also Modern Kannada. Perhaps we should ask User:माधवपंडित if it is just Modern Kannada.

It would be interesting to find out what the rest of that line means. Kutchkutch (talk) 19:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@DerekWinters, Kutchkutch: CDIAL claims a Proto-Indo-Aryan term that is onomatopoeic, [2]. I am unfamiliar with Hindi ओक (ok, “vomit”) (on of the cognates), but the list of cognates seems quite convincing. Is it possible it was just a coincidence? Or the Indo-Aryan term is borrowed from Proto-Dravidian. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 22:23, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora: That's true, I am somewhat familiar with Gujarati ઓકવું (okavũ). DerekWinters (talk) 22:26, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

@Aryamanarora, DerekWinters: I forgot to check CDIAL when I made this entry because it seemed like a straight borrowing from Kannada based on the information at उकणे (ukaṇe). Now that you mention it, CDIAL list of cognates is convincing even though I can't verify any of other the other cognates, and it can't be a coincidence that Proto-Indo-Aryan is the same as Proto-Dravidian. The DSAL Dravdian comparative dictionary has the entry ōkkāḷam to show the Proto-Dravidian word.

'प्रा. ओक्किअ' in the Date reference corresponds to 'Pk. okkia -- ʻ vomited ʼ' in Turner. Tulpule says ओक is from 'Deśi okkiam' and 'Deśi' refers to 'only those words whose etymology is unknown…A small proportion of them are of non-Indo-European descent and may have been obtained from the language of the people who were inhabiting the country before the advent of the Aryans into it…the Marathi word aghāḍā from both Deśī agghāḍa and Sanskrit āghāṭa'. Kutchkutch (talk) 02:00, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸು is Modern Kannada; it is the imperative form. ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸುವುದು (okkarisuvudu) is the infinitive. Since the entries for verbs in all modern Indian languages use the infinitive, I always enter Kannada verbs in infinitive as well but User:Princeps linguae seems to have added a whole bunch of Kannada verbs in the imperative. Anyway ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸು is Modern Kannada & is used when the speaker is telling someone to puke. -- mādhavpaṇḍit (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@माधवपंडित: I forgot to ping you above to ask about it so thanks for answering. I'll remove it then since I made the incorrect assumption and the Nandugannada term hasn't been found yet. (Sorry to mislead you DerekWinters!).

The question of whether to say it (and a whole class of such words) comes from Prakrit and Proto-Indo-Aryan versus Kannada and Proto-Dravidian still remains.

Out of curiosity do you know if ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸು composed of ಒಕ್ಕ- (okk-) + ರಿಸು (risu) as DSAL Date suggests? Kutchkutch (talk) 08:04, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: This word consists of ಒಕ್ಕರ್ (okkar) (the stem) + -ಇಸು (-isu) (which is a suffix that forms imperatives of verbs; sometimes the verbs are regular & sometimes these verbs are causative). The stem is also seen in the noun ಒಕ್ಕರಿಕೆ (okkarike, “the act of retching”). -- mādhavpaṇḍit (talk) 14:37, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@माधवपंडित: The standard citation form for Kannada verbs, on Wiktionary and in every published dictionary for the language of which I'm aware, has always been the present-tense stem, which is usually, but not always, identical with the singular imperative. "ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸುವುದು" is a verbal noun or a nominalized adjectival participle, not an infinitive; the form ending in -ಅಲು is usually regarded as the infinitive. Even if "ಒಕ್ಕರಿಸುವುದು" were an infinitive, however, it doesn't make sense to provide a more morphologically complex verb form as the lemma. Princeps linguae (talk) 17:11, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@माधवपंडित, Princeps linguae: Thanks for all the information about Kannada. Kutchkutch (talk) 01:22, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

@Princeps linguae: Ah I now see, I wondered why they were in the imperative.

True, due to the presence of gerunds in Kannada l, the matter is complicated which is why I left that lemma un-created. I have seen the present tense stem used in many Kannada dictionaries, I only tried to conform with the other modern Indian languages here which use the infinitive.

By the way, would not the suffix -ಅಲು form an indirect infinitive? (Like Hindi करना (karnā) and करने (karne)). -- mādhavpaṇḍit (talk) 01:38, 21 October 2017 (UTC)