Talk:رغم

(Notifying Alarichall, Atitarev, Benwing2, Esperfulmo, Erutuon, عربي-٣١, Fay Freak, Assem Khidhr, Fenakhay, Fixmaster, Roger.M.Williams, Zhnka, Sartma):
I believe this preposition is pronounced ruğma. Google has a ton of hits for رُغْمَ also. 109.184.88.220 23:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

All the dictionaries at [1] give this with /a/ not /u/. Benwing2 (talk) 00:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

لسان العرب under you link has all of rağm, riğm and ruğm for the verbal noun. 109.184.88.220 00:33, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@109.184.88.220 After checking online dictionaries I found رَغُمَ raḡuma and رَغِمَ raḡima but I've also heard رَغْمَ raḡma in my life

https://www.arabdict.com/ar/%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A-%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%85#:~:text=%5B%D9%85%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%AF%5D%3A%20%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%B1%20%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%8F%D9%85%D9%8E%20%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%90%D9%85%D9%8E.&text=%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%8E%D9%85%D8%8C%20%D8%B1%D9%8E%D8%BA%D9%92%D9%85%D9%8B%D8%A7%D8%8C%20%D9%81%D9%87%D9%88%20%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%BA%D9%90%D9%85%D8%8C,%D8%AF%D9%81%D9%8E%D8%B9%D9%8E%D9%87%20%D8%A5%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87%20%D9%82%D9%8E%D8%B3%D9%92%D8%B1%D9%8B%D8%A7%D8%8C%20%D8%A3%D8%AC%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%87%20%D8%B9%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87.&text=%D9%8A%D9%8E%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%8F%D9%85%D8%8C%20%D8%B1%D9%8E%D8%BA%D9%92%D9%85%D9%8B%D8%A7%20%D9%88%D8%B1%D9%8F%D8%BA%D9%92%D9%85%D9%8B%D8%A7%D8%8C%20%D9%81%D9%87%D9%88%20%D8%B1%D9%8E%D8%BA%D9%90%D9%8A%D9%85,%D9%84%D8%B5%D9%8A%D9%82%20%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%8F%D9%91%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%22%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%8F%D9%85%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B3%D9%8F%22.

https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%85/ عربي-٣١ (talk) 02:27, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Those are the citations forms for the verb(s), which is not found in Wiktionary yet. I was asking about its مصدر, of which the construct accusative is presented here as a grammaticalized preposition, as in e.g. رغم أنفه‎. 109.184.88.220 10:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The prepositon is pronounced /ˈraɣ.ma/ and alternatively /ˈruɣ.ma/, as indicated in Doha dictionary, which is for Classical Arabic and lists an example for the alternative pronunciation dating back to 744 CE. Same goes for the noun, except the terminal vowel mark of course changes according to the grammatical case. The verbs can be the intransitive /ra.ɣi.ma/, the transitive /ra.ɣi.ma/ which is also pronounced /ra.ɣa.ma/, or the form II augmentative /raɣ.ɣa.ma/. Assem Khidhr (talk) 03:48, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

If you know how to reference your findings and add alternative forms in a correct way, no-one will stop you. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I’m not a native speaker of Arabic. 109.184.88.220 10:15, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Assem Khidhr, @109.184.88.220 as a native speaker this is a verb not a proposition please check the examples, it's mostly used poetically (in idioms or figures of speech) hence why there was a confusion but we don't say رَغْمِي رغمك رَغْمَهَا we say على الرغم منها [noun] or رغم أنفها [verb] (poetically), رَغِمَهَا means He hit/humiliated her or put her nose in the sand

read the many examples in https://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%B1%D8%BA%D9%85/ and also the Doha dictionary عربي-٣١ (talk) 04:24, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure how the nativity argument is relevant. Most native speakers can't speak to syntactic determinations like assigning POS. In fact, native speakers have existed since before Arabic grammar was even established as a systematic science. Anyway, I'm a native speaker too, but the point of this discussion was to see whether the alternative pronunciation, namely /ˈruɣ.ma/, is correct, which I think my previous reply has covered sufficiently.

Now I might have given the impression that Doha dictionary classifies رغم as a preposition, which it doesn't. I only meant to say that the noun from which the preposition may have evolved (since that was the status quo on the page then) is attested in both pronunciations.

Whether or not رغم can be classified as a preposition is a big question that merits its own section. As you approach the matter, since you seem to feel strongly about it, please note that equating preposition to حرف is widely inaccurate. Arabic grammarians define حروف symantically whereas prepositions are defined syntactically. That is, حروف are defined as words that only produce meaning in conjunction with other speech and not in and of themselves. So while رغم isn't a حرف in said sense, its word order and indeclinability by means of نزع الخافض (omission of preposition) in some constructions (e.g. تحديت قرارك رغم أنفك ,المقاومون صامدون رغم الألم, etc.) may be plausible grounds for its acting as a preposition in a similar manner to the ظروف of which many are considered prepositions (تحت, فوق) although they are traditionally categorized as أسماء (nouns) in Arabic grammar. Assem Khidhr (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The page as it is now is correct. --Esperfulmo (talk) 22:01, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

@Esperfulmo, @عربي-٣١: No, it's not. What happened to the preposition رَغْمَ (raḡma)?! A few dictionaries feature it, even Almaany (ar-en). Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really sure which preposition you're referring to, and the word as a verb is Classical Arabic. You won't find it in modern texts, unless someone is trying to brag about his knowledge. --Esperfulmo (talk) 13:37, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The (quasi-)preposition is the adverbial accusative of رَغْمٌ, which is the verbal noun (مصدر) of رَغِمَ, in an إضافة construction, just like وَسْطَ (wasṭa). There are many examples at https://context.reverso.net/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D8%B1%D8%AC%D9%85%D8%A9/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%B1%D9%86%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%A9/%D8%B1%D9%8F%D8%BA%D9%92%D9%85%D9%8E+%D8%B0%D9%8E%D9%84%D9%90%D9%83%D9%8E and elsewhere. 109.184.88.220 14:37, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

So, we just need to add a second example under the noun entry. The word has two meanings, "in spite of" and "however". It's not like the only incomplete entry in Wiktionary. At least it's correct. I keep finding incorrect entries and loanwords using laughable inflections, even though they are inapplicable. --Esperfulmo (talk) 01:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)