Talk:איגרת

Iranian origin

@ZxxZxxZ: The Hebrew Wiktionary says that the ultimate origin may be the Persian word "ankara" (or something like that) which means something like "story" or "writing". Can you figure out what word it's talking about? --WikiTiki89 21:19, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I think it is انگاره (engâre (ingâra, angâra), “story, legend”), beside several other various meanings. But I guess it is borrowed from a language older than New Persian. --Z 19:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

@ZxxZxxZ: Do you know what this word would have looked like in older varieties of Persian? --WikiTiki89 19:50, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

The Persian word is from Middle Persian hng`lk' hangârag "reckoning", according to Mackenzie's Concise Pahlavi Dictionary, the word is from the verb hangâr-, hangârīdan "to consider, reckon" + the suffix -ag. The initial h would possibly be omitted in Parthian. Z 12:26, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

@ZxxZxxZ: What about Old Persian? This word is attested in Aramaic on the Asshur Ostracon (which apparently dates to the middle of the 7th century BCE). --WikiTiki89 15:53, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

It is more difficult to reconstruct the OP form, at least for me, but *hangâraka- is the first thing that comes to my mind. But the problem is that we have still found no evidence that the word developed the sense "story" etc. in Middle or Old Iranian to start with. @Vahagn Petrosyan Is there anything of interest in Old Armenian? --Z 18:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

There is no way to account for the ending -ag or -aka if this form of the word was borrowed into Aramaic. Perhaps there was another word with the same stem of hangâr-. It could also be that this theory is completely wrong. --WikiTiki89 19:37, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I think the Semitic words are borrowed from the above-discussed Iranian family, but from a word with a different ending. Compare Avestan 𐬵𐬀𐬥𐬐𐬆𐬭𐬆𐬙𐬀𐬌𐬌- (hankər^ətaii-, “Vollziehung, Vollendung”), 𐬵𐬀𐬥𐬐𐬆𐬭𐬆𐬚𐬀- (hankər^əθa-, “vollzogen, vollendet”), Persian انگارده (angārda, “fable, story, narrative”), Middle Persian hangird-īg (“summary”), Pazend angird, angirdī (“summary, conclusion”). The Armenian cognate is անգարեմ (angarem, “to consider”). All ultimately from Iranian *han- (“con-, together”) (< PIE *sem-) and the etymon of کردن (kardan, “to do, make”). For literature see:

• Ačaṙean, Hračʻeay (1971) “անգար”, in Hayerēn armatakan baṙaran [Armenian Etymological Dictionary] (in Armenian), 2nd edition, a reprint of the original 1926–1935 seven-volume edition, volume I, Yerevan: University Press, page 183ab
• Hübschmann, Heinrich (1897) Armenische Grammatik. 1. Theil: Armenische Etymologie (in German), Leipzig: Breitkopf & Härtel, pages 97–98
• Nyberg, H. S. (1974) A Manual of Pahlavi, Part II: Glossary, Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz, pages 95–96

--Vahag (talk) 09:40, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

That's a very good finding.

The "t" in Aramaic looks to be an Aramaic thing, forming the feminine form, isn't it? There's also the word انگار (angâr, engâr, “notion, imagination, etc.”). Z 15:35, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the -t forms the feminine, but it alternates with -ā in the indefinite (i.e. definite ʾiggartā, indefinite ʾiggərā, construct ʾiggəraṯ) in all but the earliest varieties, and so it could have been borrowed with or without it. --WikiTiki89 16:57, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

So I think the Old and Middle Iranian forms mentioned by Vahag fit well with the Aramaic word, and fit better than the New Persian word semantically. It would be an interesting Iranian loanword (if it is from Iranian) since known Old Iranian loanwords in Aramaic are normally attested during the Achaemenid period, i.e. 6th century BC onward. --Z 14:45, 31 January 2017 (UTC)