Talk:лодырь
Latest comment: 1 month ago by კვარია in topic From German?
From German?
[edit]@Fay_Freak: Is the German etymology found at ruwiki good? კვარია (talk) 09:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @კვარია: Aye, in that direction. In current German we use lotterig, lottern, verlottern and compounds such as Lotterbube, Lotterbett. Earlier we also had the adjective lotter and noun Lotter for someone being like that. So it is not fathomable to me how one can say “происходит от неустановленной формы”. Apparently it is a bit advanced German, all these which I labelled current German have an archaic touch though I expect anyone finishing school in Germany to know them (lol, I could become a teacher). Russian ло́дырь (lódyrʹ) and Ukrainian ле́дар (lédar) is from the Middle Low German lodder or lōder and Polish łotr from the Middle High German lotter cognate to Old English loddere – that’s how I am going to write it. Fay Freak (talk) 10:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Fay_Freak: Thanks! When exactly ло́дорь (lódorʹ) is attested? And which dialect(s)? There exists synonymous (dialectal) Georgian ლოდრი (lodri) and Mingrelian ლოდორი (lodori), which at a glance could be derived from Proto-Georgian-Zan *lodl- (or *lodr-) {Kelauradze's etymology}, but considering the forms you just attested... These might just be borrowings. კვარია (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @კვარია: ло́дорь (lódorʹ) was given as a variant in Daľ. A good example is the occurrence in a 1798 Russian–German dictionary after Adelung’s then most complete one as the only variant. ло́дарь (lódarʹ) was common till the end of the 19th century and homophone due to akanye. Fay Freak (talk) 11:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Alright. I thought these were just funky coincidences. Must be borrowings then. კვარია (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- An idea for Kelauradze: Georgian სამოვარი (samovari), Mingrelian სამვარი (samvari), Svan სამვა̈რ (samvär, “samovar”). Could they go back to Proto-Kartvelian *samovar-? 🤔 There is also Greek σαμοβάρι (samovári): a loan from pre-Greek paleo-Kartvelian substrate? @Rismang Gordeziani, Edzard Furnée. Vahag (talk) 14:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- You've got to feel for Kelauradze. One bad etymology and some guy with a very suitable surname is now not only making fun of him but even comparing him to Gordeziani. :( კვარია (talk) 06:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- An idea for Kelauradze: Georgian სამოვარი (samovari), Mingrelian სამვარი (samvari), Svan სამვა̈რ (samvär, “samovar”). Could they go back to Proto-Kartvelian *samovar-? 🤔 There is also Greek σαμοβάρι (samovári): a loan from pre-Greek paleo-Kartvelian substrate? @Rismang Gordeziani, Edzard Furnée. Vahag (talk) 14:53, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Alright. I thought these were just funky coincidences. Must be borrowings then. კვარია (talk) 11:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @კვარია: ло́дорь (lódorʹ) was given as a variant in Daľ. A good example is the occurrence in a 1798 Russian–German dictionary after Adelung’s then most complete one as the only variant. ло́дарь (lódarʹ) was common till the end of the 19th century and homophone due to akanye. Fay Freak (talk) 11:33, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Fay_Freak: Thanks! When exactly ло́дорь (lódorʹ) is attested? And which dialect(s)? There exists synonymous (dialectal) Georgian ლოდრი (lodri) and Mingrelian ლოდორი (lodori), which at a glance could be derived from Proto-Georgian-Zan *lodl- (or *lodr-) {Kelauradze's etymology}, but considering the forms you just attested... These might just be borrowings. კვარია (talk) 11:05, 7 September 2024 (UTC)