Talk:куль

Etymology

@Fay Freak {{R:pl:Sławski}} mostly just points to this as being a Ruthenian (generally) borrowing and the other meaning potentially being from Lithuanian without saying much about the ultimate source (he gives an "uncertain" and a few theories) and also nothing about any languages that borrowed it from Polish. No one else really has anything. Hope this helps. Vininn126 (talk) 14:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Vininn126: I still have not found out where to access Sławski’s Etymological Dictionary of Polish, save buying away some of the rare tomes. My question also concerned the attestation dates. Given that “Dictionary of the Russian Language: 11ᵗʰ–17ᵗʰ cc.“ has the earliest quote in 1603, it would be clear that Polish has not (completely) borrowed from Russian if attested say two centuries earlier. Broader meanings in Polish than in Russian are additional evidence. The quotations and various meanings for Middle and Old Polish that you use to access seem to have improved since Sławski, too.

For Russian now I see in {{R:ru:SRNG}} the specific meanings “central part of a seine” and “cowl, Kogel, Kugel; hood” and “a bundle of straw; a bundle of twigs” too however. All reminds me of the semantic development of Schlappen.

I left the connection, already appearing in front of me, open in order not to influence your findings from Polish sources, but it seems inevitable to ultimately identify the Russian and Polish word with Kogel, Kugel which at the time of authorship of the Russian and Polish dictionaries had little relevance but in Early New High German very much so. There you have your origin for the two Polish entries yet to create. We should have the premise that if a word appears inside of Europe thus late it is needs explainable since there are hardly undocumented languages at that point.

Another word participates, ESUM wants to connect German Kaule and Dutch kuil, Old Norse kýll (“bag”), which is a complex of a Germanic root, Pfeifer refers in Kuhle to kauern, Koben, Kobel, Kogge, Kugel, all words native Germans know. We should just not be credulous enough to reconstruct the term for Proto-Slavic already as *kuľь.

Lithuanian and Latvian attestation already begun in the 16th century and reliably borrows from either Slavic or German rather than the opposite direction, statistically unlikely: there are few specific insinuations of Slavic terms having been borrowed from Baltic, Category:Polish terms derived from Baltic languages and Category:Russian terms derived from Baltic languages are quite empty, and this is an understatement. Fay Freak (talk) 16:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It's true that there appears to be a hole in attestation - it's found in Old Polish with the meaning regarding the measurement, but missing from {{R:pl:SXVI}}, {{R:pl:SXVII}}, appearing next in {{R:pl:SJP1807}}. It is possible some Middle Polish attestations exist there - it's also more than possible the word lived on in dialects while being unwritten otherwise. I'm in the midst of adding what dialectal dictionaries are considered good, but there is a lot of material. Were I to give a summary now based on the data I have, I'd say that the word was probably borrowed twice. Vininn126 (talk) 16:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)