Talk:живородящий
Add topicLatest comment: 6 years ago by Benwing2
@Per utramque cavernam: Hi. I disagree that родя́щий (rodjáščij) is a participle of роди́ть (rodítʹ), also wrong on ruwiki - a perfective verb, pls see the declension. It's an adjective. @Benwing2: do you have anything on this? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:15, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev: This is above my pay grade; I'm not well-acquainted with Russian verbal morphology. If you think it should be changed I won't object.
- That said, ru.wikt calls it a "действительное причастие настоящего времени" at ru:родить, and also considers роди́мый (rodímyj) its passive equivalent ("страдательное причастие настоящего времени"). Wouldn't it make sense etymologically speaking, even if they're full adjectives in Modern Russian? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:27, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikitiki89 might be interested as well. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) @Per utramque cavernam: I don't have a good answer and the etymology is not always my cup of tea. It's a participle sounding adjective but it can't be an active participle of роди́ть (rodítʹ), even if it's related and has the same stem. роди́мый (rodímyj) seems wrong as well but I won't change it without finding better explanations or sources. (I don't edit much on ruwikt) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:33, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- Clearly -родящий is an active participle of родить, even if it is not used as a participle and only as an adjective. --WikiTiki89 21:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikitiki89: родящий is used as a present tense participle, родить is never used in the present tense. Please explain. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't say it's used. I said it is. The fact that it doesn't make semantic sense as a participle is why it's not used, nevertheless that's what it is. If you want an explanation of how it came to be that way, then I think it has something to do with the fact that the verb system has evolved over time, and I'm sure that in the past perfective verbs, or at least base-stem perfective verbs, were allowed to have active participles. --WikiTiki89 22:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89, Wanjuscha, Per utramque cavernam Zaliznyak says that роди́ть can be both perfective and imperfective and that it's either 4b (рожу́, роди́шь) or 4c (рожу́, ро́дишь) in the perfective but 4b only in the imperfective. Zaliznyak further says that in place of using родить in the imperfective, you can also use рожда́ть in all meanings, or рожа́ть specifically in the meanings "произвести на свет младенца" and "принести урожай - о землё". This is the basic explanation for the existence of родя́щий and роди́мый. I'm guessing from your discussion above that роди́ть in the imperfective is obsolete or dated? Should we nevertheless mention the imperfective variant and indicate that it's dated? Benwing2 (talk) 02:49, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: Excellent. Yes, please update роди́ть (rodítʹ) according to Zaliznyak with dated labels. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev Done. BTW I misinterpreted what Zaliznyak said about conjugation; it's not that either 4b or 4c is possible in the perfective, but rather that the perfective is type 4b/c (which means only рожу́, роди́шь, ... is allowed, not *ро́дишь, and the past tense has feminine родила́), whereas the imperfective is just type 4b (and hence the past tense has feminine роди́ла). Benwing2 (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- Great job, thanks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:50, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev Done. BTW I misinterpreted what Zaliznyak said about conjugation; it's not that either 4b or 4c is possible in the perfective, but rather that the perfective is type 4b/c (which means only рожу́, роди́шь, ... is allowed, not *ро́дишь, and the past tense has feminine родила́), whereas the imperfective is just type 4b (and hence the past tense has feminine роди́ла). Benwing2 (talk) 04:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Benwing2, Atitarev: Does the imperfective have the same senses as the perfective? Since in the reflexive роди́ться (rodítʹsja), we have given the perfective and imperfective different senses. --WikiTiki89 14:37, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: I don't have access to Z. at work, could you please check? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89, Wanjuscha, Per utramque cavernam Z doesn't indicate any meaning difference, and nor does Большой толковый словарь, but Русское словесное ударение does: роди́ть (pf) = произвести на свет (example given: она́ вчера́ родила́), роди́ть (impf) = давать жизнькому-н. (example given: она́ мно́го раз роди́ла, note the stress here, which is given in the original). The same thing applies to роди́тьса, where Z and Большой толковый словарь indicate no difference in perfective vs. imperfective, but Русское словесное ударение says роди́ться (pf) = появиться на свет (example given: де́ти родили́сь в оди́н день) whereas роди́ться (impf) = появляться, возникать (example given: ка́ждый день у него́ роди́лись но́вые за́мыслы; again, notice the stress). I don't know if this is enough evidence to indicate a meaning difference, but either way we should be consistent. Benwing2 (talk) 00:54, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: I don't have access to Z. at work, could you please check? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Benwing2: Excellent. Yes, please update роди́ть (rodítʹ) according to Zaliznyak with dated labels. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89, Wanjuscha, Per utramque cavernam Zaliznyak says that роди́ть can be both perfective and imperfective and that it's either 4b (рожу́, роди́шь) or 4c (рожу́, ро́дишь) in the perfective but 4b only in the imperfective. Zaliznyak further says that in place of using родить in the imperfective, you can also use рожда́ть in all meanings, or рожа́ть specifically in the meanings "произвести на свет младенца" and "принести урожай - о землё". This is the basic explanation for the existence of родя́щий and роди́мый. I'm guessing from your discussion above that роди́ть in the imperfective is obsolete or dated? Should we nevertheless mention the imperfective variant and indicate that it's dated? Benwing2 (talk) 02:49, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't say it's used. I said it is. The fact that it doesn't make semantic sense as a participle is why it's not used, nevertheless that's what it is. If you want an explanation of how it came to be that way, then I think it has something to do with the fact that the verb system has evolved over time, and I'm sure that in the past perfective verbs, or at least base-stem perfective verbs, were allowed to have active participles. --WikiTiki89 22:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
- @Wikitiki89: родящий is used as a present tense participle, родить is never used in the present tense. Please explain. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)