Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/věda

@Asank neo, Bezimenen: Where has this been taken from? I cannot find anything about alleged OCS вѣда, the West Slavic terms are obviously not old and Polish wiedza cannot formally continue this anyway. Guldrelokk (talk) 15:19, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• For the OCS term, I can quote http://histdict.uni-sofia.bg/dictionary/show/d_01686. It's in Bulgarian, though. The form вѣдь(ѥ) is the one used as a noun in translations of the Bible, while the form Вѣдa was used for example as a name. Also, in Pagan times there was a spirit called самовѣдa, which had a similar function as muses from Ancient Greek mythology. In regard to the Polish example - it was added by the author of the article, so I don't know what source they used. My guess is that it was influenced by *vědь (technically, not exactly the same word, but clearly tightly related to *věda). I can account only for the Bulgarian/CS entries.

As per the age of the term, I agree with you that it may not have been ancient. If it existed in pre-historic times, its original meaning more likely would have been something along the line of view/understanding, not science. Clearly, proto-Slavic people didn't have any notion of systematic education or sciences. Bezimenen (talk) 16:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

@Bezimenen: I see the noun вѣдь, an abstract i-stem noun – this is, of course, good.

For Polish wiedza, compare OCS невѣжда, Russian неве́жа (and неве́жда < OCS). It reflects *věďa, a nomen actiōnis in -jā, also good.

This specific derivation does not look normal, however. I am worried because of the so-called ‘Slavonic Vedas’ made up in the nineteen-nineties and popular among the Neo-Pagans. I am even more worried now: I have certainly never heard of a spirit called самовѣдa, but there is a Hindu Sāmaveda. Crackpottery alarm. Guldrelokk (talk) 17:08, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• I am not a specialist on the history of Slavic Paganism. I know there were some forged collections of Slavic myths in 19th century - e.g. Veda Slovena, which may be the actual origin of these spirits. Now that I checked, there are some other true Slavic spirits with similar names - самовила, самодива, which may have confused me to think that самоведа is also ancient. What I can provide as a reference is Български етимологичн речник, Vol 1. The entry about веда < Old Bulgarian /that's how we call OCS in Bulgaria/ вѣда says that *věda has developed from *vědь (knowledge, magic) in analogy with Russian ведьма, Bulgarian вещица ('witch') (from *věščь). This is the only trustworthy literature that I can point.

With regard to *věďa, I know it with the meaning eyelid or eyebrow (check Vasmer for reference). Unless it had a different meaning in West Slavic, I don't think it can be used to explain Polish wiedza. Bezimenen (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• @Guldrelokk: I think that if we are going to keep *věda with the meaning knowledge, information, then the OCS example should be вѣдь or вѣдьѥ (both forms exist). Вѣда is encountered only sporadically, as an agent not a notion, and it seems to be a derivative of *vědь. Bezimenen (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

@Bezimenen: Thanks for the reference! It doesn’t project this word back into Proto-Slavic though (nor into Altbulgarisch: по-старо only means older, right?), and it look like an agent noun, so maybe we should only make a Bulgarian entry вѐда̀ (vèdà, “witch, ghost, lightning”).

There are two homonymous terms *věďa. One is an o-grade action noun from *viděti, the other is a similar action noun from *věděti, meaning ‘sight’ → ‘eye’ → ‘eyelid’ and ‘knowledge’ → dialectally ‘knowledgeable person’, respectively. I have now added the other one to *věďa with a reference to Anikin. Guldrelokk (talk) 18:42, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

• @Guldrelokk: It seems so. It is my mistake. The original version of *věďa was the same as *věda, but since in South Slavic it meant eyelid, I edited it. It didn't help either that Czech věda, Slovac veda, and the Sorbian forms pointed toward proto-Slavic *věda. I should have done more research before editing. And, yes: по-старо means 'older', 'from an earlier time' Bezimenen (talk) 18:53, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
  • @Bezimenen: I have tried to write the Bulgarian entry.
  • By the way, if you are going to work on Bulgarian, some time ago I wrote a pronunciation module {{bg-IPA}}. Unfortunately, there wasn’t anyone to review and test it. Guldrelokk (talk) 19:14, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
    • @Guldrelokk: Unfortunately, I don't have proper graduate-level education in Modern Bulgarian (I study Historical Linguistics in UK), so I cannot be a reliable judge on this topic. In principle, Bulgaria is covered by several dialectal areas which often disagree on the pronunciation, so most literate Bulgarians get accustomed to all possible pronunciations. There are of course standards and official rules, but they are loosely followed. Just to give you an example - безшумен (bezšumen), which is employed as a test word for the template, can be pronounced [bɛʃˈʃu̟mɛn], [bɛʃu̟ˈmən], ['bɛsʃu̟mɛn], and even [bez·'ʃu̟mɛn] (contrary to the rule for devoicing) depending on the dialect and how articulate the speaker is. This being said, by reading the documentation code, I think the basic transliterations and principles are covered accordingly. Bezimenen (talk) 21:50, 28 December 2018 (UTC)