Reconstruction talk:Proto-Kartvelian/ṭerep-
Add topicLatest comment: 2 years ago by კვარია
@Vahagn_Petrosyan: this makes sense wrt. reconstruction, but I'm kind of concerned with the shift in meaning between Georgian and Svan. Perhaps @Fay_Freak knows if coltsfoot ~ dock is common/happens in other cultures? კვარია (talk) 16:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- @კვარია: That particular correspondence I cannot instantly think examples for, but it is obvious that the plants are named after the form of a hoof or horseshoe. You need a particular dock species though, look at the leaves of Rumex alpinus which is spread in the Caucasus (tip: about distribution information, consult German Wikipedia, English Wikipedia regularly misses these details that we are interested in; but I find thereafter that you specified the Svan as this exact species, so this my idea is confirmed thereby). For the leaves we have Proto-Slavic *kopytъnikъ meaning the unrelated hazelwort and coltsfoot; *podъbělъ (“coltsfoot”) literally called by the undersides of leaves came to mean Petasites as found for this Kartvelian word later in Russian by the same superficiality. Fay Freak (talk) 18:26, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, leaf shape was my suspicion too! It's good to have examples in other language families.
- @Vahagn_Petrosyan: there's some merit to this reconstruction, but I find Georgian ტერეფ- ~ ტირიფ- (ṭerep- ~ ṭirip-) to be strange. This doesn't normally happen in Georgian. Proto-Kartvelian *e should give e in both Georgian and Svan. (Though I admit that I'm not familiar with Kakheti dialect, being a West Georgian myself.) Also note that Fähnrich doesn't use strong language. This is a tentative reconstruction. კვარია (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- I now believe these plant names are inseparable from ტერფი (ṭerpi, “foot, heel”) and are named after the leave shapes. Old Armenian տերեփ-ուկ (terepʻ-uk), տերփ-ուկ (terpʻ-uk), attested only as a translation of κενταύρειον (kentaúreion), does not have hoof-shaped leaves but perhaps we are dealing with a confusion of plants.
- Does ტერფი (ṭerpi) have an etymology? If it is native, I think Old Armenian տրոփ-եմ (tropʻ-em), տորոփ-եմ (toropʻ-em, “to stamp on the ground; to trample or tread under foot”) is borrowed from the Zan cognate. Vahag (talk) 19:42, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- There's a theory in Chukhua which isn't worth mentioning. In Old Georgian the term could also mean "heel". Also an interesting case is Old Georgian ჴამლის-ტეფი (qamlis-ṭepi), where რ (r) is dropped. კვარია (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- So what’s the corresponding Svan term to Georgian ტერფი (ṭerpi, “foot”)? It is possible that only it dates to Proto-Kartvelian but the body part name in Svan was only retained in a compounded plant-name, the first half of which was dropped when the body part reference was not being understood anymore by speakers. The scheme herba Sabīna → sabīna (if this linguistic phenomenon has a name, tell it me!). Otherwise it is odd to suppose that the designation of the body part by itself was used as a plant name, without any affix or compounding; Fähnrich’s Proto-Kartvelian lexical item of “a plant name” thus presumably unreal, and it is on the contrary a body part name. Fay Freak (talk)
- ტერფი (ṭerpi, “foot/sole/heel”) is seemingly isolated to Georgian. კვარია (talk) 09:29, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- So what’s the corresponding Svan term to Georgian ტერფი (ṭerpi, “foot”)? It is possible that only it dates to Proto-Kartvelian but the body part name in Svan was only retained in a compounded plant-name, the first half of which was dropped when the body part reference was not being understood anymore by speakers. The scheme herba Sabīna → sabīna (if this linguistic phenomenon has a name, tell it me!). Otherwise it is odd to suppose that the designation of the body part by itself was used as a plant name, without any affix or compounding; Fähnrich’s Proto-Kartvelian lexical item of “a plant name” thus presumably unreal, and it is on the contrary a body part name. Fay Freak (talk)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: There is half a thousand of centaury species, many rare, many obscure synonyms, some only recently described, of great diversity in leaf shapes in particular. E.g. pree Centaurea angelescui. You think it is spread in Bulgaria to Ukraine somewhere but allegedly Transcaucasian Centaurea acmophylla is a synonym of it. Of neither you find pictures, of most you don’t find pictures, and if you find then often one photographed the flowers and not the leaves … Fay Freak (talk) 20:44, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- There's a theory in Chukhua which isn't worth mentioning. In Old Georgian the term could also mean "heel". Also an interesting case is Old Georgian ჴამლის-ტეფი (qamlis-ṭepi), where რ (r) is dropped. კვარია (talk) 20:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
Some more finds in: Khevsureti and Pshavi დათვისტერფა (datvisṭerpa) refers to "Arum orientale". Again, similar leaf shape. In Svan there's also ჯუ̂ატელფაჲ (ǯûaṭelpay) which is seemingly borrowed or partially calqued from Racha Georgian ჯორისტერფა (ǯorisṭerpa). კვარია (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2022 (UTC)