Category talk:Prakrit terms derived from Scythian languages

RFD discussion: April 2021

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

---

𑀔𑀭𑀧𑀮𑁆𑀮𑀸𑀦

𑀘𑀱𑁆𑀝𑀦

𑀦𑀳𑀧𑀸𑀦

𑀰𑁄𑀤𑀸𑀲

𑀬𑁆𑀲𑀫𑁄𑀢𑀺𑀓

𑀳𑀕𑀸𑀦

@SodhakSH Since these entries have references, shouldn’t they be discussed? Kutchkutch (talk) 17:28, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Antiquistik, Victar Kutchkutch (talk) 17:48, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

All of these entries are of proper names which are very well attested from coins and other monumental inscriptions, so I don't understand why they have been nominated for deletion. Antiquistik (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Some of these words have clusters, which are impossible in Prakrit! For example, 𑀘𑀱𑁆𑀝𑀦 = चष्टन, but this cluster 'ष्ट' and the letter 'न' is not possible in Prakrit. It would be, closest to it as चसटण (casaṭaṇa) or चट्ठण (caṭṭhaṇa). @Antiquistik: Please list at least 3 sources that say that these are "very well attested from coins and other monumental inscriptions". The book which is referenced in these, would surely be on Google books, right? Then, why on searching Google books for these gives no Sanskrit results? Yes, I can see Hindi results, but not Sanskrit and by no chance, Prakrit. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 01:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Here are the sources for these proper names:

1. उलान/𑀉𑀮𑀸𑀦 - N. P. Chakravarti, Epigraphia Indica Vol.24, 1937, pages 205–206
2. 𑀉𑀱𑀯𑀤𑀸𑀢/उषवदात - E. Hultzsch, Epigraphia Indica Vol.8, 1905-1906, pages 78–79
3. 𑀓𑁆𑀱𑀳𑀭𑀸𑀢 - E. J. Rapson, Catalogue of the coins of the Andhra dynasty, the Western Ksatrapas, the Traikutaka dynasty, and the "Bodhi" dynasty, 1908, page 65
4. 𑀔𑀭𑀧𑀮𑁆𑀮𑀸𑀦 - E. Hultzsch, Epigraphia Indica Vol.8, 1905-1906, pages 173–74
5. 𑀘𑀱𑁆𑀝𑀦 - E. J. Rapson, Catalogue of the coins of the Andhra dynasty, the Western Ksatrapas, the Traikutaka dynasty, and the "Bodhi" dynasty, 1908, page 72 - 75
6. 𑀦𑀳𑀧𑀸𑀦 - E. J. Rapson, Catalogue of the coins of the Andhra dynasty, the Western Ksatrapas, the Traikutaka dynasty, and the "Bodhi" dynasty, 1908, page 65
7. 𑀬𑁆𑀲𑀫𑁄𑀢𑀺𑀓 - E. J. Rapson, Catalogue of the coins of the Andhra dynasty, the Western Ksatrapas, the Traikutaka dynasty, and the "Bodhi" dynasty, 1908, page 72 (where it was initially misread as Ghsamotika), and Pankaj Tandon, The Western Kshatrapa Dāmazāda (where the reading was corrected to Ysamotika)
8. 𑀰𑀓𑀫𑀼𑀭𑀼𑀡𑁆𑀟/शकमुरुण्ड - Devadatta Ramakrishna Bhandarkar, Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum: Inscriptions of the early Gupta Kings, Archaeological Survey of India, 1981, pages [6]-[14]
9. Smith, Vincent A., Catalogue Of The Coins In The Indian Museum Calcutta. Vol.1, page 196
10. 𑀳𑀕𑀸𑀦 - Allan , J. , Catalogue of Coins of Ancient India in the British Museum, Trustees of the British Museum , London , 1936, p. 184
11. 𑀳𑀕𑀸𑀫𑀱 - Allan , J. , Catalogue of Coins of Ancient India in the British Museum, Trustees of the British Museum , London , 1936, p. 184

Most of these books aren't previewable on Google Books, but they can be crosschecked through their online versions on the Wayback Machine or the Indian Culture Portal. These are all names of Saka origin which are attested in Prakrit or Sanskrit coin legends or monumental inscriptions. Antiquistik (talk) 06:29, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Antiquistik: Although User:SodhakSH marked these terms for speedy deletion, what the issue actually appears to be is how to treat epigraphic Sanskrit and non-Ashokan epigraphic Prakrit terms that are not from literary sources. 𑀤𑀔𑀺𑀦𑀸𑀧𑀣𑀧𑀢𑀺 (dakhināpathapati) was perhaps the only epigraphic Prakrit term until these terms from Scythian were created.

@SodhakSH: The terms on inscriptions and coins should also have entries even if they differ from the terms found in Category:Sanskrit reference templates and {{R:pra:Sheth}}. Could this issue be resolved by having Epigraphic Sanskrit and Epigraphic Prakrit at Module:labels/data/subvarieties and Module:etymology languages/data? Kutchkutch (talk) 09:48, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: I agree with your proposal to resolve this issue. Antiquistik (talk) 03:57, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@Antiquistik, Kutchkutch Agree to this proposal. What about Some of these words have clusters, which are impossible in Prakrit? 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 06:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

@SodhakSH: Regarding Some of these words have clusters, which are impossible in Prakrit:

Unless they're moved to Sanskrit or a better method of treating Indo-Scythian terms is devised, the Prakrit language could be used for these term since Prakrit spellings are not entirely indicative of their pronunciations. Some of the clusters may be indicative of the pronunciation of the Scythian terms for which is very little information about. Kutchkutch (talk) 08:49, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Resolved Discussion unrelated to deletion may still be ongoing. Kutchkutch (talk) 09:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• The Scythian reconstructions are no good. They should be replaced with {{bor|lang|xsc|-}}. --{{victar|talk}} 05:40, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, that would be better 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 06:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

  @Victar: If Harmatta's reconstructions aren't good, can't the Scythian terms be replaced by the proper reconstructions instead of being blanked out? Antiquistik (talk) 07:27, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

  Novel reconstructions are time consuming, when done properly. Better to delete the erroneous information now and let someone else do the work at an appropriate pace working from Category:Prakrit terms derived from Scythian languages. --{{victar|talk}} 18:46, 28 April 2021 (UTC)