Appendix talk:Ancient Greek first declension
Add topicMasculines in -ης
[edit]Masculines in -ης can have vocative -η or -ᾰ according to grammars.
H. W. Smyth's Greek grammar on p. 48 ff. (ccel.org) for example has κριτής with voc. κριτά and Ἀτρείδης with voc. Ἀτρείδη.
Of course, the question should arise when is the vocative -η and when -ᾰ? Smyth states: "those in -της have [voc.] -ᾰ (πολῖτα), all others in -ης have -η (Ἀτρείδη, Κρονίδη son of Kronos) except names of nations and compounds: Πέρσᾰ Persian, Σκύθᾰ Scythian, γεω-μέτρᾰ (nom. γεω-μέτρης measurer of land), παιδο-τρίβᾰ gymnastic master."
So examples with voc. -ᾰ are: κριτής, προφήτης, τοξότης - γεωμέτρης, μυροπώλης, παιδοτρίβης - Πέρσης, Σκύθης.
LSJ also mentions the voc. κριτή found in Hipponax (6th century BC) but that should be in another dialect than Attic (i.e. it should belong to Appendix:Ancient Greek dialectal declension#First declension) and maybe it was used in verse out of metrical reasons.
It would be nice if the declension with nom. -ης and voc. -η would be mentioned too for the sake of completeness or correctness.
BTW: LSJ has "ὀρέσ-της, ὁ [...] elsewh. only as pr. n. Ὀρέστης, voc. Ὀρέστα, S.El.6,15 [Sophocles' Electra], etc.", so is Ὀρέστης with voc. Ὀρέστη correct and is Ὀρέστα an exception or a non-Attic form, or is the entry incorrect?
-80.133.106.19 15:30, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Dative in ᾱͅ [single letter a with macron and iota subscript]
[edit]According to Hansen and Quinn’s Greek : An Intensive Course (1992/2014: 21), the -ᾱ retains it long vowel in dative, yielding the following paradigm (nom, voc, acc, gen, dat): -ᾱ, -ᾱ, -ᾱν, -ᾱς, ᾱͅ (as per now, Wikipedia renders alpha with macron and iota subscript poorly).
Pure alpha exceptions
[edit]Hello, @Mahagaja, Erutuon. Sorry to bother you again. The pure alpha (before vowel or consont ρ) is macron, except at all proparoxytones, and in 8 paroxytone words where it is brachy (according to greek schoolgrammars). We call them «the σφαῖρα words»
- bisyllabics γραῖᾰ (graîa), μαῖᾰ (maîa), μυῖᾰ (muîa) and with -ρα μοῖρᾰ (moîra), πεῖρᾰ (peîra), πρῷρᾰ (prôira), σφαῖρᾰ (sphaîra), σφῦρᾰ (sphûra)
Oddly, the word σπεῖρᾱ is not included. They missed it? ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 11:31, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- They're not really any different from other first-declension nouns ending in ᾰ like γλῶσσα (glôssa) or θάλασσα (thálassa). Smyth includes them in the declension table at §216 and discusses them at §219. I'm not sure who mean by "they" when you say "they missed it", but yeah, σπεῖρα (speîra) belongs there too. Smyth mentions several others as well: βασίλεια (basíleia), ψάλτρια (psáltria), γλυκεῖα (glukeîa) (an adjective form, but it declines the same way), ἀλήθεια (alḗtheia), εὔνοια (eúnoia) etc. —Mahāgaja · talk 11:41, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja thank you... Smyth is a bit confusing to me, he analyses in detail. My question was, when does alpha purum (which is always macron) appear as brachy? (at all proparoxyones -Smyth gives specifics- plus the above words). The greek books exclude σπεῖρα from the exceprtion.group like σφαῖρα, and I was wondering why. Probably, the group is not complete, Yes, Smyth says most substantives in -ρα. O never mind... I was fixing this declension at el.wikt and it drove me crazy... :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 20:27, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- Α, some more books I checked, say a purum comes as bracy for paroxytones and for γαῖα, γραῖα, μαῖα, μυῖα, μοῖρα, πεῖρα, πρῷρα, σπεῖρα, σφαῖρα, σφῦρα which explains their perispomeni. Thanks. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 20:33, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: I'm really bad at remembering what words like "proparoxytone" and "paroxytone" mean, but I do know that (1) the circumflex can never be followed by a long vowel in the same word, so any word with a circumflex on the penultimate syllable must have a short vowel in the final syllable, and (2) antepenultimate stress is possible only when the final syllable has a short vowel. So in both the "σφαῖρα" words and the "ἀλήθεια" words the accent proves that the final alpha is short, just as in ἑταίρα (hetaíra) and θήρα (thḗra) the accent proves the the final alpha is long (because an acute accent on a long vowel or diphthong in the penultimate syllable is never followed by a short vowel in the final syllable). Also, browsing through Category:Ancient Greek feminine nouns in the first declension I found another "σφαῖρα" word not included in your list: αἶρα (aîra). —Mahāgaja · talk 13:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- Ο @Mahagaja you are amazing! You found one more word!. Yes, yes, the -ρα words SHOULD have a pure macron because any such 1st.decl word with charchter r or vowel should end at macron. That is why they are exceptions. I will add it at my Catηγορία! οοο how exciting your contribution is. No greek philologist thought of it. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 14:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: I guess because I studied Indo-European linguistics, they don't seem like exceptions to me. I just remember that the words ending in η and ᾱ come from Proto-Indo-European *-eh₂, while the words ending in ᾰ come from *-ih₂. And sure, some words ending in *-ih₂ have an r before that suffix, but to my mind they aren't "exceptions" because having r before *-ih₂ is no different from having any other consonant before *-ih₂. I guess it all depends on your perspective. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja!! righttt... I did not know exactly, the PIE stems. Thanks. And then, what happened, the α changed into η at old ionic. And then, in attic it came back to a but only at ρ-ι-ε words.. The el:αἶρα word is not included in the standard list, because its a bit irregular, and a bit hellenistic. :) Thank you for explaining. I will add a note at my appendix... ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 14:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: Yeah, something like that. eh₂ became ā in Proto-Hellenic; this ā stayed ᾱ in Doric in all positions and became η in Ionic in all positions, but in Attic it became ᾱ only after e, i and r, and became η everywhere else. (The word κόρη (kórē, “girl”) looks like an exception, but isn't really, because it comes from Proto-Hellenic *kórwā, so the ā was still after a ϝ when it became η. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:51, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Mahagaja!! righttt... I did not know exactly, the PIE stems. Thanks. And then, what happened, the α changed into η at old ionic. And then, in attic it came back to a but only at ρ-ι-ε words.. The el:αἶρα word is not included in the standard list, because its a bit irregular, and a bit hellenistic. :) Thank you for explaining. I will add a note at my appendix... ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 14:42, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: I guess because I studied Indo-European linguistics, they don't seem like exceptions to me. I just remember that the words ending in η and ᾱ come from Proto-Indo-European *-eh₂, while the words ending in ᾰ come from *-ih₂. And sure, some words ending in *-ih₂ have an r before that suffix, but to my mind they aren't "exceptions" because having r before *-ih₂ is no different from having any other consonant before *-ih₂. I guess it all depends on your perspective. —Mahāgaja · talk 14:34, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- Ο @Mahagaja you are amazing! You found one more word!. Yes, yes, the -ρα words SHOULD have a pure macron because any such 1st.decl word with charchter r or vowel should end at macron. That is why they are exceptions. I will add it at my Catηγορία! οοο how exciting your contribution is. No greek philologist thought of it. ‑‑Sarri.greek ♫ | 14:10, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
- @Sarri.greek: I'm really bad at remembering what words like "proparoxytone" and "paroxytone" mean, but I do know that (1) the circumflex can never be followed by a long vowel in the same word, so any word with a circumflex on the penultimate syllable must have a short vowel in the final syllable, and (2) antepenultimate stress is possible only when the final syllable has a short vowel. So in both the "σφαῖρα" words and the "ἀλήθεια" words the accent proves that the final alpha is short, just as in ἑταίρα (hetaíra) and θήρα (thḗra) the accent proves the the final alpha is long (because an acute accent on a long vowel or diphthong in the penultimate syllable is never followed by a short vowel in the final syllable). Also, browsing through Category:Ancient Greek feminine nouns in the first declension I found another "σφαῖρα" word not included in your list: αἶρα (aîra). —Mahāgaja · talk 13:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)