Wiktionary talk:Rhymes

Rhymes

The messages in this section were deleted by a vandal (diff) and years later restored (diff).

I am a new Wiktionarian and a long-time Wikipedian (on en). I have been led to believe (possibly by something on meta) that Wiktionary is a dictionary, thesaurus, English to Foo Language guide, Foo Language to English guide and a rhyming dictionary, but I have not seen any rhymes anywhere. Has it actually been brought up on Wiktionary, or should I just do what I want and figure it out when someone else cares? Tuf-Kat 22:45, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

For words that have pronunciations given, one could reverse them to make an index of rhymes. If you have a list of rhymes, and want to include it on a page, I for one would not complain. List it along with the Syn and Ant subsections. Hmm, but that would be redundant. Perhaps a single page for the rhyming sylable, linking to all the applicable words? Rhyme:ɛd for example would list bed, Fred, bled, etc. Someone should populate it fairly well all at once (with blank pages) just to make sure the set is consistant. —Długosz — This unsigned comment was added by Długosz (talk • contribs) at 19:33, 25 March 2004.

I considered making a MediaWiki page that would include all the words of a certain ending sound. Then, placing {{msg:-ore}} on a page could show a list of words that rhyme with gore, lore and whore, for example. This would make it easier to edit, I suppose, but may prove too simplistic (for example, differences in pronunciation in different times and places shouldn't be oversimplified...). Tuf-Kat 21:00, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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The messages above were moved from Wiktionary:Beer parlour (permalink) to WT:Rhymes (permalink) and from WT:Rhymes (permalink) to this page (permalink).

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I don't agree with the way the rhymes are being done. The index for each "rime" should have its own page - not appear on every single page! Some of these indeces will be enormous! And what about the letter combinations which form valid words in several languages - shall we have one of these bulky indices for each entry on each page? It will overwhelm the regular content. And what about rhymes which only count for a particular pronunciation? I think the rhyme section belongs in the pronunciation section with the homophones where a link can be added under its matching pronunciation, pointing to an index page which then lists all possible rhymes. — Hippietrail 06:26, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't have any attachment to this format, but I don't understand exactly what you're proposing. Why don't you implement it somewhere as a test and we'll see what it looks like. Any other suggestions? Tuf-Kat 06:55, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Appending my 1st attempt, still needs work of course... — Hippietrail 07:14, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think you should make an example page with a word that has more sylables, and show indices for maculine, feminine, etc. rymes. That is, rhyme deeper and deeper into the word. Perhaps a multi-part link can do that succintly? Click on the sylable and it gives rhymes to that depth (that and everything to its right). —Długosz — This unsigned comment was added by Długosz (talk • contribs) at 21:27, 21 April 2004 (UTC).

Good idea! I'll try and implement it. TUF-KAT 07:48, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

The sample rhyme page is good. But the names of the pages--someone else pointed out the IPA vs SAMPA issue, but there is more ambiguity than that. Is the length of a vowel significant? Probably not, since the list already lumps together words that may rhyme only in some accents. Someone just looking up a rhyme would have no idea to add the length dots or to put parens around the ɹ. The only way to find anything is to start with an index of rhyme pages, or jump from a known word. I think making the rhyme index page first is good, to serve as a list of the available (existing) pages, for consistancy. It can also be critiqued as a set before all the pages are built.

Also, I don't like the rhyme being indented under the SAMPA line in war. It would be silly to show it for each notation, since they are all the same. So I think it ought to be paralell with the pronunciations, not indented under one of them. I'll change war to illustrate.
—Długosz — This unsigned comment was added by Długosz (talk • contribs) at 15:51, 4 May 2004 (UTC).

I disagree on indentation. "War" is not a good example. A better one is "aunt", which would link to the rhyme page /-{nt/ for American pronuncation and have many rhymes; and link to the rhyme page /-A:nt/ for the rest-of-the-world pronunciation, and rhyme with few words (shan't, can't). This is one of the reasons I've changed the format of my pronunciation section to put all ways of writing the same translation on one line: AHD-IPA-SAMP - this way I can have one such line for each pronunciation and indent the homonym and rhyme section under the relevent pronunciation.

As far as looking up rhymes, only a very few people would even think of trying to type in the IPA or the SAMPA or any other pronunciation scheme. Most people would start at a word they want a rhyme for, and follow the links. Only contributors need mess with the SAMPA or IPA, which is a lot less to worry about. Now vowel length is absolutely important. Even more so in many languages than in English. I really don't see any point at all in using one form of IPA or SAMPA in the pronunciation section and another form in the names of rhyme indeces. What a nightmare for people trying to learn how to contribute!

When it comes to issues of dialect or accent in a rhyming dictionary designed for more than just one country, there's going to be problems. My suggestion is not to have rhyme index pages with brackets in them. Have one page for rhymes with the optional morpheme and one page without. Or if you do have the version with the brackets, the other two versions should exist and be linked. — Hippietrail 01:21, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

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Proposed format

English

Pronunciation

• rīmz, /raɪmz/, /raImz/

  Rhymes: -aɪmz

Noun

rhymes

1. Plural of rhyme.

Verb form

1. Second-person singular present tense of to rhyme.

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Hi TUF-KAT!

Just noticed your rhymes appearing again. Watch out though because it looks like some of your page titles use IPA (-aɪmz, -æt) and some use SAMPA (-O:(r)) Personally I tend to favour the IPA but it doesn't really matter. We can always have redirects from one to the another. But consistency is always a good thing in the meantime... — Hippietrail 07:26, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, I know nothing about phonetic spelling. Feel free to move any I mix up.

A question: [1] gives all sorts of derivative terms, including scantily clad, newspaper ad and scouring pad, and even capital of Chad. This seems strange to me, but I suppose could be useful. Even if one thinks of the word pad, I suppose it has other connotations before "scouring" and specifying a specific use could be helpful... How common does a grouping of two or more words need to be in order to warrant an entry in Wiktionary? And/or on one of these rhyming pages? TUF-KAT 08:14, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

I'd hold off on rhymes that are multiple words for the moment. Set idioms may warrant appearing. If a phrase has a wiktionary entry I guess that gives it some credibility but maybe we should wait until poets start asking us for improvements (: — Hippietrail 08:41, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

P.S. Apparently brackets don't work as article titles, so SAMPA can't really be used for titles. Can all browsers display the funny-looking IPA characters? Is there a way to type them on a standard keyboard? TUF-KAT 08:33, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes I just noticed that myself. The browsers can display the IPA but some people may not have capable fonts. Most Windows users will have Arial Unicode MS though. Code2000 is a decent downloadable font which has most of Unicode. Of course, most people using the rhyme feature care more about finding what they want than what the pages are called. If the pages themselves also have SAMPA and AHD then they'll be able to read. And of course they'll get the pronunciation from the large number of rhyming words on the page anyway. The main thing as far as titles for the rhyme index pages is that no two pages have the same name. This is the best argument for picking one standard. — Hippietrail 08:41, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Oh and using the name "Rhymes:English:-æd" for "Rhymes:English:-{d" will get you out of trouble. — Hippietrail 08:49, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

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Rhyme index

As this seems to be a discussion page for rhymes, I've set up an index page called Rhymes:English that links to all of the rhyme pages I am aware of. This will be a candidate for the "Index" namespace that is being proposed in the beer parlour.

I am also in the process of adding comments to pages to warn people that, in order to feature on a particular page, words MUST be stressed on the first vowel of the name of the page. So, for example, "awake" rhymes with "bake", but "cornflake" does not (as "cornflake" is stressed on the -or-, not on the -a-). -- Paul G 09:53, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I would rather they be marked in some way then excluded. In spoken poetry, songs, etc, this distinction is often glossed over. Thus, I think there will be a significant proportion of readers who will not care that cornflake must be pronounced with a different emphasis in order to make it rhyme. TUF-KAT 05:23, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

For now, I am not including them. I think it would be useful to do so, however, perhaps as under an "Others" section showing that the words don't rhyme properly with anything but could be used as "partial rhymes" to the words on the page. This would avoid setting up a page for "-ornflake" that contains only the word "cornflake", which would not very useful. -- Paul G 13:06, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

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The discussions from here up to the next "The messages above were moved" were moved from Wiktionary:Rhymes (permalink).

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No forms?

I noticed that in many of the rhymes lists, there are notices in comment tags that warn not to add plurals or third-person singular forms of verbs to the list unless they having meanings different from the respective singular or infinitive. Why is this? Do we not want as many rhymes as possible, whether or not they are lemma forms? --Yair rand 04:57, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

That's the reason I came here too (two whole years later!) am gonna bring it up on the Beer Parlour. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Inflected forms should IHMO be allowed; they are actually used in rhyming. For a discussion started by Mglovesfun, see Wiktionary:BP#Non-lemma_forms_on_rhymes_page, January 2012. --Dan Polansky 10:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, IMHO "all words in all languages" implies "all rhymes in all languages" (but I'm not going to add the very many thousand of Italian verb forms just yet). SemperBlotto 10:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Because form rhymes have the potential to flood the rhymes pages, and make lemma rhymes hard to find, it may be a good idea to have a separate section on the rhymes page just for forms. —CodeCat 12:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

RFM discussion: December 2013–January 2015

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Rhymes pages from using : as the separator to using /

So for example from Rhymes:Dutch:-ɑn to Rhymes:Dutch/-ɑn. Using / makes more sense because the software splits page names on slashes. —CodeCat 00:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Plus it would be less likely to be confused with 'ː' (the long vowel symbol). --WikiTiki89 00:38, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Why keep the hyphen? Mglovesfun (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• I oppose. Keep it where it is, keep the hyphen. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

This discussion has been overtaken by events, and by a vote about this subject. - -sche (discuss) 23:09, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Adding rhymes

Seems semi-automatic addition of rhymes doesn't work. I tried on several pages but the message “ERROR:ReferenceError: WikiXml is not defined” is displayed. Is there anyone who can fix this? [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 16:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

User:IvanScrooge98, is it still not fixed for you? Dixtosa (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@Dixtosa: it is now, thank you! [ˌiˑvã̠n̪ˑˈs̪kr̺ud͡ʒʔˌn̺ovã̠n̪ˑˈt̪ɔ̟t̪ːo] _{(parla con me)} 17:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)