Wiktionary talk:Macedonian transliteration

Module:mk-translit

For your consideration, Module:mk-translit, see also the talk page with tests. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:27, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Providing word stresses on irregular words

@Martin123xyz, Clicero, Dimithrandir: Hi. At Wiktionary:Macedonian_transliteration#Stress, I've just added a clause regarding the required stress mark for words with irregular words stresses, such ателје́ (ateljé). The stressed Roman transliteration has been always for Macedonian but manual transliteration is not required. It's the head parameter, e.g. {{mk-noun|n|ателјеа|head=ателје́}} in entries or just an acute accent over the stressed syllable elsewhere, e.g. in translations {{t|mk|ателје́|n}}.

Not so sure about the liquid letters (Cyrillic) "р" and "л". Perhaps they should be included as stressed symbols as well? Please let me know about such cases where "р" or "л" are stressed and it breaks the antepenultimate syllable stress rule. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello.

In this book on Macedonian orthography and orthoepy (pp. 28-30, of the book itself, not of the e-reader), you can find a pretty exhaustive list of the classes of exceptions to the antepenultimate stress rule (which is not quite as regular as was described on the Macedonian transliteration page). Some of the examples provided have an irregularly stressed syllabic liquid, such as темноцрвен (temnocrven). Martin123xyz (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

@Martin123xyz: Thank you, I found the example, made the entry темноцр́вен (temnocŕven) and updated the document section. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:57, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for these additions. It looks very well. Martin123xyz (talk) 20:47, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

@Andrew012p: Hi. Just a reminder/confirmation that stress marks in Macedonian are only required when there is an exception. E.g. положба (položba) doesn't require a stress mark, since it is as expected. As per above and this page itself. Pls check with other Macedonian editors, e.g. @Martin123xyz, Горец, if you disagree or have questions. If rules change, pls discuss and update the policy. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:01, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm relatively new to Wiktionary. Do you mean not adding stress at the IPA if it's as usual, right? Or the bolded words? Because personally, I would want stress on the bolded words for people who don't know the specific stress rules in Macedonian. An automatic stress feature only for Macedonian for bolded words would be amazing, and only manual when needed. Andrew012p (talk) 07:31, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Andrew012p: Sorry for the delay. I don't know what you mean by bolded words but I mean adding a stress mark in по́ложба (póložba) in the headword - {{mk-noun|f|по́ложби|head=по́ложба}} or anywhere else seems redundant where the stress follows regular rules.

It makes more sense to add stress mark on irregular words like аташе́ (atašé) or {{m|mk|студе́нт}] where the stress can't be predicted.

The automatic stress is used in the pronunciation templates, so {{mk-IPA|по́ложба}} (with the mark) works the same way as {{mk-IPA|положба}} (without the mark) when the stress is regular.

For people who are not familiar with stress rules, it's sufficient to refer to Wiktionary:Macedonian_transliteration#Stress. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 08:48, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

@Atitarev We started a discussion (in Macedonian) about it and agreed on some things. Gorec (talk) 09:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Горец: Thanks for the update and keep this project page up-to-date, if you think a decision is made. It looks like you decided that stress should be semi-automated and not only in the pronunciation section. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:43, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev We are still waiting for opinions from the other interested parties. Gorec (talk) 10:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev I agree with the discussion we have made with @Горец and @Dimithrandir.

Translation in short: Stress should be placed on:

       1. all pages about words with irregular stress (неправилен акцент)
       2. the pages with "stressed wholes" or "enlarged stress domain" (акцентски целости)
       3. all pages on verb adverbs (глаголски прилози)
       4. the "Translations" section of the English pages (every word)
       5. the "Descendants" section in the pages with the reconstruction of Proto-Slavic words (every word)
       6. pages with words with an irregular stress, on the main word and derivatives (even if one of the derivatives retains the third-syllable stress), at least in the headword line, as in "пламенофрлач" The stress falls on р́. In plural it also falls on р́, but it is according to the Macedonian stress rules. Пламенофр́лачи (falls on the third from behind) so that's why we write the stress because in the normal form it falls on the second one пламенофр́лач (breaks the rule, irregular stress).
       7. pages about frequently used words that are often mispronounced, such as македо́нски (correct is маке́донски but not many Macedonians say it like that) and similar words
       8. pages about some geographical names that are often mispronounced 

We don't add stress:

       1. Pages with normal stress according to the Macedonians stress rule in the headword (plural etc). Example "смешник" 
       2. On the {{mk-IPA}} (if stress falls correctly) Andrew012p (talk) 12:06, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Andrew012p: Thank you!

Points #7 and #8 could potentially make quite a lot of words, considering how other Slavs or foreigners in general can mispronounce Macedonian words or word forms.

What is #2 "accented wholes" (акцентски целости)? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev: А́кцентски це́лости[[1]] (I called it "accented wholes", but I don't really know if it has a name in English, probably "stressed wholes" is better) refers to the connection (syntagms) of two stressed words spoken with one stress (акцент, нагласок = stress). Example - Бев на́ река (I was at a river). The Stress falls on "на", it creates this melody as if you are saying one word "нарека" but it's actually separate. Interestingly though, in Macedonia this became regional somehow but is still considered standard Macedonian although not many Macedonians use it, and because of that, it should be taught in school but teachers skip those classes. It's used (spoken) in every day conversation in Central (only older generations) Macedonia, West and South. North and East Macedonia don't use it. Акцентски целости is considered standard Macedonian and I will be honest, even I don't speak it and don't know it perfectly. :) Here in Skopje we say - Бев на ре́ка (not standard Macedonian). Andrew012p (talk) 22:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Andrew012p: Thank you, makes senses. There are such cases in Russian and other languages as well. I don't know the word for it either. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:50, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Andrew012p Акцентска целост is when at least two words are pronounced as a whole (кисело млеко, суво грозје, црн пипер, Со‿кого́‿беше?, Кому‿се́‿јави? etc.), and the stress falls on the antepenult. This is also known as "enlarged stress domain".

@Atitarev #7 and #8 will not make a lot of words, because for most of them we mark it under the pronunciation section only, the standard and nonstandard pronunciations. See португалски. The terms like Маке́донец, маке́донски or Македо́нија are of special meaning for us, and in such cases we want to mark the correct stress. Gorec (talk) 23:39, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Горец, @Atitarev: Wouldn't it be also good if we add a note as in семафор? To write in the pronunciation section and also as a note? Serbo-Croatian for example fixed this problem by adding special characters to their words. For example look at this word: поглавар. They wrote - погла̀ва̄р. а̀ means correct stress and а̄ means where Serbo-Croatian speakers mispronounce it. Andrew012p (talk) 23:45, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Andrew012p: Letters with a macron, e.g. "ā" mean a long vowel /aː/ in Serbo-Croatian.

Pls check the solution for Russian terms with standard and non-standard accents, e.g. роженица (roženica). Standard рожени́ца (roženíca) and роже́ница (rožénica), non-standard but very common: ро́женица (róženica). Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)