Wiktionary talk:About Assyrian Neo-Aramaic

Transcription vs Transliteration

Transliteration: translating from the script and diacritics (1-2 translations) Transcription: translating from how a word is said (lots of translations)

I think using Transliteration makes the most sense for translations. Since there are several dialects of modern Assyrian Aramaic, using transcription would mean having to choose between all the different ways a word is possibly said. For example: ܒܲܝܬܵܐ baytā in classical spelling- "house" This can be transcripted as bayta, besha, basha, beta, betha, and probably more. These are just some dialectical versions that come to mind. Thus using transliteration based on the classical and original way it's spelled makes the most sense, despite modern assyrian aramaic not coming from it. It's not like modern assyrian dialects trace their origin to one modern assyrian dialect either, nor are they all similar, to justify using one modern dialect as the standard. Concerning the use of Iraqi Koine, there aren't really many resources for it and it isn't actually standardized either. It doesn't consider dialects with few speakers.

I think different dialects' pronunciations should be listed on the page, even if the way it's said don't align with the script, but not used them as the main translation. Plurals should also be added by dialect pronunciations but again while using classical syriac plurals as the main ones, otherwise we could end up with something like betwate (modern) and batte (classical). It wouldn't make sense to make it "sound classical" like baytwatha since that word might not even exist or be said like that by dialects who do pluralize words in the modern classical way. Opinions? Shuraya (talk) 18:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

ܒܝܬܐ for an example Shuraya (talk) 22:53, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Shuraya, @Antonklroberts: I agree with going for a transliteration (it feels more "neutral", all considered), unless we clearly specify here that the Romanization (general term for either a transliteration or a transcription) after the headword is a transcription of Iraqi Koine. That's also a viable solution.

I don't know much about AII, so maybe it's a stupid question, but do they all use the same written forms, with the same vowel pointing? Or are the forms we're using at the moment on Wiktionary peculiar to the Iraqi Koine? Because in this case I would actually probably prefer a transcription... Sartma (talk) 13:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

It’s not a stupid question! Assyrian Neo-Aramaic dialects have only started to be written the last 300 or so years, classical-syriac-based spellings are still dominant and there is no actual standardized Assyrian neo aramaic. This means people who try to “modernize” the spelling tend to spell words how their dialect says them, and sometimes mix them with classical. This can lead to half a dozen different forms for the same common word and imo is very messy and unorganized. For Iraqi koine, there’s no real resources for it and it itself isn’t standardized. Not all Assyrian neo Aramaic speakers even use it or have heard of it, I definitely hadn’t. I wouldn’t say that the forms used in the wiki right now would be peculiar to Iraqi Koine since again it isn’t even usually written and definitely does not have standardized writing. I would go against using it since it would involve coming up with ways to spell or say words ourselves with the complete lack of resources for it compared to the standard classical spelling that’s always been used Shuraya (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

@Shuraya: Thanks for your explanation! So, if I understood you correctly, at the moment here on Wiktionary we are actually using the standard classical spelling, right? Do we have a dictionary we can add on this page as reference book when it comes to spelling? I've been suggested this Sureth dictionary, and searching online I also found A Syriac Lexicon (not free, but you can find a pdf online if you know where to look... XD). Are you familiar with any of these? Could they be a valid source for checking spellings? If you know of other online dictionaries, it would be great to add them in the AII page!

And yes, if that's the current situation regarding spellings, I would personally be in favour of a transliteration, not a transcription. Sartma (talk) 20:33, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I’m not sure which dialect’s spelling is currently used, maybe an assumed version of how Iraqi Koine would be written, you would have to ask @Antonklroberts since he did make most of them.

For a dictionary on classical spelling I suggest using the site sedra.bethmardutho.org which doesn’t have every word yet but is much less tedious compared to cal.huc.edu (it doesn’t show only Syriac but also other Aramaic dialects and has dictionaries with spellings linked). Both of them often include Sokoloff. Most of the dictionaries linked are written in classical syriac using western vowel signs but the eastern equivalent can be easily assumed. Tomas Audi’s lexicon “treasure of the Syriac language” uses eastern vowels and has free pdf versions. Assyrianlanguages.org/Sureth dictionary I noticed has lots of errors, different spellings, wrote etymologies and contradictions etc and leans more towards modern spellings, but it can also be useful, it just needs to be double checked sometimes. It can be tedious since there aren’t many simple resources for Syriac but these are the ones I know of! hope that helps!! Shuraya (talk) 23:43, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

@Antonklroberts: What reference materials do you use when creating aii entries? What do you base spelling and vocalisation on? Sartma (talk) 12:36, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi there, I have this dictionary written by Bailis Yamlikha Shamun which can be purchased on this website https://www.khudata.com/

The spelling and vocalisation of all the entries are based on the Semitic root system and the classical spelling and the Iraqi Koine which is a bridging of the Modern Urmian Dialect of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, standardised with the rest of the regional dialects of The Nineveh Plains, Hakkari, Tyari and other regions of the Assyrian homeland. With the most notable feature that it features as less foreign words as possible swapping the Farsi/Turkish/Kurdish/Arabic etc. loanwords with Classical Syriac/Aramaic words. Not always 100% as loanwords are inevitable as it is a normal part of language. The spelling is based off Classical Syriac rhetoric howver the language itself is not from Classical Syriac so I sometimes diagree when it comes to basing something off of Classical Syriac even though most of the time it is a good tool in the Future push for the standardisation of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic. Hope that helps! :) Antonklroberts (talk) 12:44, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

@Antonklroberts: Thank you! Would you be able to let us know what the transliteration system in that dictionary looks like? — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 03:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Antonklroberts: Hello! Any You're still there? Since the dictionary you're using as a reference for your romanizations is not available online, would you mind updating the Project Page with the transliteration system u are using? Wiktionary is a collaborative project, not a private one, and we all need to be on the same page about the rules and systems we are using. Please, take some time to update the Assyrian Neo-Aramaic project page! — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 07:15, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah sure thing I'll fill out the table now Antonklroberts (talk) 09:13, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@Antonklroberts: You can copy-paste this table and modify it as you prefer with the transliteration system you're using. — Sartma ^{【𒁾𒁉 ● 𒊭 𒌑𒊑𒀉𒁲】} 07:17, 8 September 2022 (UTC)