User talk:Fabartus/Archive1

My wikihome is w:user talk:fabartus or commons:user talk:fabartus. I bounce back in forth roughly 70:30.

Please feel free to email me at fabartus-at-comcast.net or via gmail.com. FrankB 01:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

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Note for experienced Wikipedians:

Wiktionary is run in a very different manner from Wikipedia and you will have a better experience if you do not assume the two are similar in culture. Please remember that despite your experience on Wikipedia, that experience may not always be applicable here. While you do not need to be an expert, or anything close to one, to contribute, please be as respectful of local policies and community practices as you can. Be aware that well-meaning Wikipedians have unfortunately found themselves blocked in the past for perceived disruption due to misunderstandings. To prevent a similar outcome, remember the maxim: be bold, but don't be reckless!

Having said that, we welcome Wikipedians, who have useful skills and experience to offer. The following are a couple of the most jarring differences between our projects that Wikipedians may want to learn up front, so things go smoothly for everyone. Changing policy pages on Wiktionary is very strongly discouraged. If you think something needs changing, please discuss it at the beer parlour, after which we may formally vote on the issue. You should also note that Wiktionary has very different user-space policies, we are here to build a dictionary and your user-page exists only to facilitate that. In particular we have voted to explicitly ban all userboxes with the exception of {{Babel}}; please do not create or use them.

We hope you enjoy editing Wiktionary and being a Wiktionarian. --Connel MacKenzie 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

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Slammed already

Please also note that templates are supposed to be in lower case here, unless there is a language code conflict. WT:I2T is our index to templates. --Connel MacKenzie 05:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, Connel, it would sure be nice to know how to post to your protected talk page! I generally edit in lowercase, so that shouldn't be much of a problem. I'm just porting in a few interwiki support links that are also used on both the commons and en.wikipedia. Finding your category links was a tad more difficult. // FrankB 06:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I did not intend my comment to seem like any sort of "slam"! You did get the template right; I had hoped the link provided would prove useful.

I am interested to know what categories didn't match. I've spent some time here and there, trying to make things match whenever possible. I'll re-unprotect my talk page (semi-protected during a vandal flurry) right now. --Connel MacKenzie 06:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Pardon my sense of humor... I've been working a lot lately to interconnect categories interwiki, and I always seem to run into someone I need to convince that common names are aids to productivity amonst the . NBD, really... I still haven't had my dinner, it's 2:22 am, and the wife's going to throw a fit in the morning!

• You really, 'spoke too soon', so to speak... I had to work around your software not capitalizing the first letter just now with {{W2}}... though I was glad to create it as {{w2}}, which is in the lowercase we apparently both prefer.

• I took a quick peek at the link, and I'm sure it'll be useful. I'm just trying to finish porting three tags, which unfortunately needed some groundwork. You won't like two of their names. {{WikiPtmp}} and {{WikiPcat}} are both used to interlink sister templates and categories respectively, and {{Commonscat}} you already have a variant of in {{wikipediacat}}. These listed have the added benefit of allowing for a link to the main article on en.wikipedia. That, I'd guess would be quite useful over here.

• In any event, this is part of a pilot program to efficiently interconnect various projects. Until we see some system software upgrades promised, the few test tags I hang over here will hardly be noticed. see: category:Fishing or category:Fish for examples after I change 'wikipediacat' to 'WikiPcat'.

• Cats added for compatibility with template classifications on Template:W2or :

• Category:Templates using ParserFunctions
• Category:Interwiki link templates
• Category:Wikipedia navigation templates

The first two are very stanard en.wp, the latter collects most of the utility templates we've been using the past five-six weeks whilst exploring how to better automate interwiki connections. In any event, I'll also be fixing up (It's back in my edit stack see: user:fabartus/tmp1) your commonscat to default to the same catpage on the commons. Right now that seems to not work, and the code will handle any specific 'override' perameter if given, as seems to have been the practice here. The newer version will do that transparently, whilst defaulting to the proper page. (We've been doing a lot of these.)

Btw- your software's neglect at capitalizing first letters now have me with pages in user space for both fabartus and Fabartus. Sigh. (Sometimes, I'm a tad slow. I should have caught it when I programmed my signature.) I've redirected those as appropo.

Gotta finish up and get some shut-eye after eating! Best regards, from across the big pond! // FrankB 07:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Xchg-3

Enjoy your food, go to bed, but do come back tomorrow. Yes, much better interproject coordination is needed on many, many levels. For templates, just be very careful (on this, and other Wiktionaries) about two and three letter entries; those are supposed to all be language codes only (if lowercase.) I'm a couple timezones west of you. --Connel MacKenzie 07:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone else with bad habits! The letter combo's shouldn't be an problem. Hmmm, {{i}} and {{s}} {{TL}}, {{tlx}}. Dang, 'tlx' examples are broken--they all used caps. I need that link to en.wikipedia, I broke something, and I'm too tired to find it, so I'm taking your advice.

Take a look at w:category:Internal link templates... some of those are used frequently. Let me know if you see any obvious name collisions. // FrankB 07:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

If you remind me again sometime when I'm awake, I'll look closely. The only major one I see so far is that {{TL}}, which should be a redirect to {{temp}} - and {{temp}} is the one you should be "advertizing" not "TL." --Connel MacKenzie 17:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to sign earlier - due to a weird JavaScriptism.)

Question

Shouldn't {{W}}/{{w}} be simple redirects to {{wikipedia}}? --Connel MacKenzie 17:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

W is/was a Meta template in origin, I believe, and adopted on some sites, and not on others. The larger problem is in finding a set of user friendly menomics that haven't been pre-used by any Template:W2. Template:Tlx does very different things on the Commons and on en.wikipedia itself, and thus Template:Tlx came about trying to write usage that could be ported without text changes from one sister to another, ditto Template:Tlx, as 'Wc' was similarly circumscribed on the commons by prior use. SO I canceled the problems with one character iterations and maintain some mnemonic relation, if not a perfect one. Template:Tlx just won't cut it unless we modify the usage from sister to sister on such occasions... Template:IWorse... The other issue is that on half the sister's, give or take, their own prefix (e.g. Commons:template:WikiPcat works fine here, but is a redlink on Template:the commons itself. Template:ISame deal here: (nowikied on left, active on the right side)[[wiktionary:character]] -- [[character]] -- [[Wikt:character]]Template:SPwiktionary:character -- character -- Wikt:characterTemplate:ISo again, such needs a generally applicable Template:WD or some foresighted smarts to get around the issue locally. See: the previous link generated by Template:Lts, which I'm in the act of pasting up here to see the #ifeq hoop we jump through in the logic (compare to the 'displayed usage's claimed logic... the original less complicated content') to get around that little matter of annoyance. Cheers! Check my contribs... I brought over a few good tools today. // FrankB 07:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Ut

redirects

Hiya. As the welcome note says above, we don't like redirects here. Every word or phrase should have its own entry; left bracket should exist in its own right, not least for the purpose of translations etc. Cheers, Widsith 08:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine, I'm worried about links from nine wiki's to the tenths, and another browser window may have the more permanent change. I thought it polite to ensure there was an entry destination for the links in the tables... See the interim ref template (Ironically, I'd was just parking this tool when I got the message flag) Template:Tlx.

The narrow name columns: {the set of) { blank, bracket, ..., Space } (and whatnot) etc. are links to here using {{WD}}, the Redlinks on the right and left columns need Template:Tlx or W2: prefixes. But that's not high priority at the moment... One step at a time. I've got to put the overall logic to bed on the linking templates on all sister's first.

I do clean up after meself, so no worries mate. I'm quite capable of searching for loose ends tagged with 'Redirect' and adding content you'll like later. (I even have been known to pick up my dirty socks and clothes and get them into the laundry! Amazing feat, that! <g>) For now, they link to the sensible whilst I fix logic... they were part of the test on (failed logic in) Template:Tlx if you look at the chronology! Cheers! // FrankB 14:56, 2 September 2006 (UTC) (Xpost-see here to Template:Ut

Userpage

Hello, could you please move your userpage back to the standard Uppercase version? Right now it doesn't correspond with the username. — Vildricianus 20:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The thing here is that while pagenames can be lowercase, usernames can't (database structure et al.) So at User:fabartus there are no contribs links, email, etc. since there is no user "fabartus", only "Fabartus". WT:A provides a list of admins, but I've already moved the stuff now. Cheers, — Vildricianus 08:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:IOK, thanks. One of the troubles with being an ex-C/C++ programmer with a fair knowledge of Unix, is one over uses lower case! Template:IOn WP and most of the other sister's, lc firsts just don't happen and aren't even possible without severe contortions. So I guess I've got to get less lazy! Hah!<g> Template:IAll that work pressing the extra key, and all that! Don't know if I can handle the extra labor! <BSEG>Template:IThanks. What would happen if'n I'd moved it onto the redirect was worrisome, a tad. Best regards, // FrankB 17:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

template reminders

It is probably a bad idea to add gramatical templates here, from Wikipedia. Their use of gramatical names is almost always guaranteed to be different.

Also, please remember that we only use lower case template names. Be meticulous in moving them to the lowercase form, please. --Connel MacKenzie 23:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm unwilling to compromise on that... The names that are inuse on all the other English wiki's should be used unless you really don't want connected to the sources. I don't see why you cannot keep compatibility in template tools available elsewhere. Case redirects work fine and track as the primary for data base tallies, transclusions, etc., Template:Tlx created and tagged w/Template:Tlx... but you seem to have made Template:Lts disappear. Did you even look at it? It takes a list, not editorial extra typing! This is bullshit! NO RESPECT FOR MY TIME! // FrankB 00:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Please note that your addition of prohibited templates is an expression of disrespect to all Wiktionarians that have built this project. There are very clear reasons for not having linguistic templates from Wikipedia - their use of these templates is to assist conceptual navigation, not linguistic lookups. --Connel MacKenzie 00:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Template synonym again

OK, I really think it is a very, very, very bad idea to add gramatical templates here, from Wikipedia.

The Wikipedia concepts are anti-linguistic. They assist lookups for concepts not words. Our focus here is quite the opposite.

There are lots and lots of reasons not to have {{Synonym}}, but the only possible reasons for having it would be to assist transwiki cleanup or to help visitors from Wikipedia. Perhaps the later has merit. But the former does not. We don't include section headers like that within templates (or section editing breaks.) So the template "solutions" would not pan out anyhow.

--Connel MacKenzie 00:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Try reading and thinking first... That was specially adapted from wiki's cat tagging MainBold, for here, as one which lists synonyms in link form... about half an hour of my time you just shit all over. I got the idea checking a Merriam-Webster definition, as a matter of fact, or I could have used Dictionary.com... BOTH present synonyms in CSL formats aka [comma seperated lists]. It even adds 's' and flags an error. It's a tool, not something to do with whether concepts are anti-linguistic, but what will display! // FrankB 00:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Stop with the bad redirects!

Perhaps we could discuss this on irc://irc.freenode.net/wiktionary --Connel MacKenzie 00:21, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a bad redirect. Computers do exactly what they're told.

I don't RSS, I need to give this box back to the wife, then I'm going to cool down (HOPEFULLY, THIS WAS A BIT OVER THE TOP!!!) and watch the Steelers. If you're around circa Midnight fine... we can email. In the meantime, you can fix the redirect by undeleting the template. // FrankB 00:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Sorry - I also lost three edits here back in a stack of trials. Wikiwork on Firefox is something I should KNOW not to do... and that includes other edits I started on Wikipedia that lead me to check the definition for plug here. Steamed... even worse now! And in the middle of it is this clown of an IP editor who more than doubled my two year edit tally in reverts, something I hate to do, unless there is vandalism:

23:21, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:MainBold (Tag w/ Template:Wiktionary adaptedas, export and adapt on Wikt) (top)

23:18, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Wiktionarytmp adaptedas (tidy up) (top)

23:15, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Wiktionarytmp adaptedas (Genesis for immediate need-- A NEW GENERAL C LASS???)

23:12, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:82.212.68.183 (+{{Welcomeip}}+ Template:W2) (top)

23:00, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) User talk:82.212.68.183 (All reverted--Bad timing now!)

22:59, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template talk:Metatmp (;this is cross post to Template:Ut:Seems he wanted to simply some logic, which had some validity, though is mistimed.) (top)

22:46, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) WIP (+WIP List et al) (top)

22:27, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Wiktionarytmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:26, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Wikisourcetmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:20, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Commonstmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:19, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:WikiNewstmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:18, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:WikiQuotetmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:16, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:WikiPtmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:15, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:Metatmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

22:12, 7 September 2006 (hist) (diff) Template:WikiSpeciestmp (rv 7 September 2006 82.212.68.183 uninformed changes... these won't work on all sites with your alterations) (top)

So, 00:52 less before 22:12 (UTC)... adds up to a very distasteful 2+ mostly wasted hours. Catch you tomarrow. I'm sure you'll be in bed by my midnight. We should talk here. This is what the page is for. Or the email... you never answered my post the other day. // 00:52, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I got an e-mail from you the other day. --Connel MacKenzie 00:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

• Why, despite being set in preferences to warn if leaving no summary, is this implimentation allowing me to save??? The others don't!!! // FrankB 00:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • That preference applies to the main namespace, AFAIK. --Connel MacKenzie 00:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hi I've just returned. I really think the bulk of our conversation would be better off-line. That way, a coherent summary can be added somewhere to Wiktionary.

You seem rather miffed that Wiktionary does things differently than perhaps you are accustomed to. A lot of people's time has gone into building our layout in an acceptable manner. Blithely disregarding that with a new (inferior) way of identifying, for example, synonyms is not a good way to build inter-project cooperation.

--Connel MacKenzie 04:31, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

File:Pdnbtn.png

• No, I'm miffed that you deleted it without discussing it, barely, but amazingly 'before I had the time to close the edits to the second of two pages I'd used it on'. That's downright disrespectful, to say the least. So this is personal, not professional, if one can apply such to WikiWorks. In a word, I'm offended. You obviously need a Template:W2 policy over here, not to mention a deletion discussion policy and procedure. That really says something about how high-handed I find this, as I hate those damn talk pages and bureaucracy. Apparently, you don't go in much for editorial judgement and latitude either. And you certainly don't get points for answering that rather lengthy email! And just to finish framing the matter for you, I was proud of and kind-of bragging about that template. It's taken a lot of work to get good with them, and instead of giving it a judicious trial and decent examination, you killed it without even seeing where it was linked, nor what it's capabilities were. That's unconscionable. Period.

• If there is a superior method, well and good, but a list of possible synonyms, or just a list sans all the '[]' garbage typing MUST be useful here once in a while just to see what permutations might need be filled, or are currently available in preview mode. And superior or not, it doesn't say why it is unsuitable in a quick and dirty edit when one is under time pressure to close a stub and deal with RL or other pressing matters. It's very time efficient for finding redlinked permutations, or blue, or would be if I'd imported the code that allows upto 15 things to be CSL listed. (See: Template:W2 for example, since you were rude enough to spit on this one.

• Taking the discussion offline says your methods are contrary to Wikimedia Foundation practices of being open and above board... these talk pages are the corporate work papers and internal records and memorandum. This may be slow, but it's open and available for reference elsewhere.

• With the availability of {{WD}}, a whole lot more inline references in wikipedia articles are going to be made, and those links to Wiktionary pages are going to be coming up empty... an interwiki redlink if you will. That's why I had nice little adds under 'plug' and 'polarized' and 'polarization' and such and lost them in that F****ng undersized browser cache—I was really taking a wiki-day-off, and sat down to check a meaning on the wife's laptop... well, the editing is in my blood. The redlinks and ads on the Wikipages are the real loss.

• After your little trick, I doubt you could get my friend Template:Ut to get me to contribute here. I'm seriously ticked at your high-handed behaviour and tempted to let you all suffer without tying you into the sister wiki's tool chest. I thought you were a Bureaucrat or steward, not a rapist and mugger! Yet you acted just as forcefully. And if you have some idiotic need to run all lowercase when the rest of the sister's are using a first letter cap on templates, then want to bitch about name-case redirects, I simply don't need the hassle, my plate is overfull and spilling off the table. It's not like I'm getting paid for any of this... and you certainly put a damper on satisfaction!

The simple solution is to use the one in place on the sister project with all the man-power. {{R from other capitalisation}} / w:Category:R from other capitalisation, but, Oh, I forgot, NIH, not invented here. Sorry, I'm getting the message. Bilophiles not wanted, just fussy people into minutia and lexicography that have some strange idea, despite the ample proof to the contrary in the historical record, that there is such a thing as a universally correct way to spell anything. NOT! Never has been, never will be... except as a fantasy, or do you prefer phantasy, old style? I don't really care. I do care your search engine sucks at finding misspellings. That would be useful, most words I can define in three or five permutations in my sleep. 'Correct spelling', as mythical as it is, is something I check. If you're missing a word, I'll stub something in, and you all can fuss all you want, because you'll not get another two full fledged efforts like those I lost again. Your {{stub}} template works just fine... even in uppercase first! // FrankB 07:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I am stunned that you think of my actions as high-handed. I deleted that template because I saw you used it on another article and I did not want your mistake to run away unchecked. So, here we are discussing it.

The lower-case first character was forced uopon all Wiktionaries, against consensus. I have done some hacks to force the correct lookup to happen for anonymous users - registered users get the option of doing the one extra click themselves, or entering the other capitalization. I don't think you'd believe how many hundreds of human hours have been spent discussing this topic.

Rapist? Mugger? Oh please. You'll note that from your first mistakes here, I'd promoted conversation, trying to direct you towards the discussions and decisions the community here has already reasolved. I think I have been quite supportive of your efforts, despite your perceptions.

Yes, I know I still don't get any "points" for not replying to the e-mail you sent that I never got.

--Connel MacKenzie 17:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Xpost to Template:Ut

In this nebulous digital wikiWorld one can sometimes get over involved; I'm usually on my guard against such, but going into last weekend snuck up on me. I've spent literally days hour on hour revamping the initial system, and like so many things, it just got to be a bit too much to hit a new frustration. So I took a few days off, least I continue the daze! <G> In anyevent, I was just dropping in to fix a typo I'd unearthed, and wasn't supposed to be wiki-ing anything today as well until sometime this evening... instead the whole day has been on Meta and the commons, with an email to Jimbo Wales for spice, as he finally got back to me on something relating to category interlinking... the direct ancester of the templates scheme, but one more important by far, as it's also interlingual, but needs system software upgrades, which is where Jimbo enters into it. I want him to kick it around with the rest of the board and the programmers that can answer the issues I haven't yet devined... or not knowing enough, can only present with a rough sketch of what needs to happen. So apologies.

Apologies on the email if you can't find that either. I saw my copy of it somewhere during the last two days, and early this evening at the latest (I'm at 3:48 EDST, Boston, MA area), I'll track it down again and resend. I just looked and came up empty, which means nothing first pass. My email filters are pretty complex, but at the moment, I'm rushed. TTFN // FrankB 19:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry for the rough start

I'm sorry your suggestions and well-intentioned improvements have gotten such a rocky initial reception. I'm sorry Connel seems so high-handed.

Understand that Wiktionary is, for better or worse, different from Wikipedia. Some of the differences may be gratuitous and unnecessary, but others are significant and quite necessary or useful. And the established community is, like any established community, generally happy with the status quo, which it has built to its liking. No one ever, sadly, likes a little kid barging in and insisting that the emperor has no clothes, whether or not the little kid is right.

I think that several of your suggestions have merit. (I can offer some more detailed comments if you like.) But on big subjects like redirect policy, or overarching template naming schemes, or visionary grand unifying theories across all wikiprojects, being wp:bold and just making lots of significant or sweeping changes is not, I'm afraid, going to fly. People are going to have to understand what you're trying to accomplish, first, and get comfortable with the idea(s). Simultaneously, you need to understand some of the ways in which Wiktionary is different (at least some of which, as I said, are important and can't be brushed away) so that you can adjust your ideas accordingly.

I realize that discussion and consensus-building is timeconsuming and sometimes frustrating, and I do sympathize if you can't be bothered. But if Wiktionary is wrong for being different, it's not some simple little mistake that can be speedily "corrected". The people who made Wiktionary what it is will have to be properly convinced, lest you seem high-handed, too.

Again, apologies for the rough treatment, and good luck. —scs 14:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for this, but I'm fairly easy to get along with, and in retrospect, it wasn't as much high handed as being shockingly rapid and dismissive. I will say that I've had more trouble with the case issues and required names work-arounds like 'Cat'---> 'CAT', 'S' ---> 'SP', and such here than all the other nine sister's put together. That's not a slam, just a report on the facts. I have no overarching desire to remake you folks into a Wikipedia Carbon Copy, but the concept of distributing the handy tools developed over many man-years to all the English wiki's just came about because of needs... mainly my own selfish ones... I kept trying to use things that weren't available on the commons.

As you can see from the above Xpost to Connel, I've both calmed down some, and am generally known for connecting the bigger picture. This whole scheme is something I've got to lay before Meta's Template:mw soon, and it's already taken far more of my time to get the system properly configured so that it would be robust and maintainable, and other technical matters in the underlying design, than I could have ever dreamed. Let's just say working with templates so extensively threw me some real curveballs here and there. And as is usual, Template:W2 rules when one is in a hurry... and the behinder one gets, the more in a hurry one is liable to be! <g> Template:W2 Template:WD

I'm not sure what local taboo's are affected or being flaunted if I import a tool that is useful, debugged, and most importantly, available on a wide scale where many thousands of capable editors have experience with it. Are you suggesting Meta and Wikipedia conform to your Naming Conventions on shared materials? Certainly can't happen on the first letter capitalizations. Worse, one editor here changed the uniform Template:W2 names on a couple of the interwiki templates into an unworkable all lowercase... which would not then link with it's sister's on the other English wiki's. The interwiki tagging templates rather heavily depend on the Meta software's Template:mw '{{PAGENAME}}' and that internal to the word change just breaks them. That was part of the lost email to Connel, who was uniformly helpful until he got into a quick state of ultra-speedy-deletionism! (And, yes, I still like him. That was just very bad timing. He's too quick for me. I'm slow and steady, I have no idea how he could have begun to assimulate that note, much less the template, before I backspaced and closed the related second edit... and got a redlink! That, I didn't need. A little more delay, and it might have been weeks before I saw the change. Kind of funny in retrospect! Amazing too.)

I suppose one can redirect all nine other wiki's to possess an all lowercase variant, but A) is that reasonable, and B) why bother; the various tens, or hundreds of tool templates will have the same issues in at least the first letter. Just to work around your ubiquitous Template:Tlx/Template:Tlx for example, I had to introduce Template:Lts on all the other sister's and then again, I've had to scheme as to how to handle such naming collisions in a general way. (See w:Template:Interwikitmp-grps see also, esp. the second table.) (Pardon the interim version's bottom clutter— I'll be trolling for all the name collisions I can soon on all the projects, and that's breaking down somewhat under the parsing inside the auxillary template that also gets sucked in.)

However, those two tables pretty much layout the whole system. If they don't, let me know ASAP before I propagate it, for Pete's (And Frank's! <g>) sake! Gotta run. Thanks, I'll be back this evening I expect! The email's on too! // FrankB 20:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC) (w/see this (mn) edit on Template:Ut)

Experiment removed

It has been well over a month, with no explanation forthcoming, an no use found for the array of templates you created that clogged the Special:Wantedpages list. I've cleared most of them. I'll review the rest at my next opportunity. Please don't add any templates again, without significant prior discussion. --Connel MacKenzie 14:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

• Too bad, just when real life is letting me start back with some wikitime. I don't think of a uniform system of interwiki connections, nor common tools as the least experimental or controversial.

• Nice of someone (NOT!) to let me know by email that there was a deletion discussion ongoing. Wish I had the free time to undo others well intentioned time consuming work.

• There appear to be too damn many people in acedemia involved in wiki's that haven't a clue as to holding a real job and real life! Get a life. // FrankB 17:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And how many people took the time out to try hand-holding you? Yet you proceeded with many templates that made no effort to comply with previous efforts? If you are looking for someone to blame for deleting and rolling back your changes, look no further. You had thwacked several lists, then dissapeared. E-mail? How is that helpful to someone making an effort here? You never did answer Uncle G's queries, nor addressed the immediate problems nor secondary problems you created. --Connel MacKenzie 18:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What inquiry do you refer to from Uncle G? Like my email, there is nothing above to which to refer. If you were hand holding, then babysitters use clubs. I can assure you, if I wanted to exhibit basic civility and common courtesy on any matter of import, no matter how trivial, or if I needed an answer, I'd make sure I exhausted all means of communication to get a message through. Such as for instance, taking into account whether this was an occasional or one's home wiki. Such as perhaps leaving a message on Meta, with it's handy email auto-notifications. No one here did, which pretty much makes your hand holding a DOA argument, imho, so doesn't say much at all good for the common courtesies practiced here. Regards. // FrankB 23:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

User talk:Uncle G#This was a bad idea. --Connel MacKenzie 21:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Xpost and Belated answers

including Uncle G's section linked above by Connel today.

This was a bad idea (fm Uncle G's)

Please do not rename these templates, particularly the Template:W2 one's. When updating we go from link to link to link pasting in a new version to maintain EXACT IDENTICAL code. Since everything is keyed in off of {{PAGENAME}}, you are changing the relative linking to all the other templates in the project were we to try to reach one from the template link, which happens constantly. Plus you were breaking an internal test coding that depends on that exact page name in one of three #ifeq: tests that use that page name so we don't have to write and maintain multiple versions. The redirect can go the other way, and we are setting up some. Besides, some of us like camel case! <g> Haven't seen you or said Hi! for a while. Take care, and don't do anything I wouldn't do... like mess with a nine-sister interconnection system when you don't know the rules, the fragile parts, or what's in development and planned development! <g> Consider yourself spanked with a wet noodle! Cheers! // FrankB 10:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• (a) What on Earth are you talking about? That paragraph makes no sense at all. What you are talking about appears to bear no relation to the template that you have linked to, which contained no #ifeq: tests whatsoever until yesterday, when you broke it, and whose operation is unaffected by what its own name is, since its use of {{PAGENAME}} is relevant to the page that it is transcluded onto.

  (b) Why have you linked to a rename operation that was done 15 months ago, as part of dealing with the throwing of the case-sensitivity switch that happened back then?

  (c) Who is this "we" that you are purporting to represent?

  (d) Please explain why you just broke Template:wikispecies.

  (e) Please explain, given that it appears to be an exceedingly complex and byzantine way of doing what for several years has been done in a very simple fashion and doesn't even work, why Wiktionary should keep any of what you have just dumped into the template namespace.

  Uncle G 23:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Connell M. just pointed me to back this post. This all happened about the time RL demanded a sacrifice of all my wiki-time for most of three months. Looking at this was a 'too quick' mistake editing across sister projects... note the suffix 'tmp' on the interwiki's on the one I landed, so I have to presume I was modifying the url and well... missed. The target should have been {{WikiSpeciestmp}} like w:template:WikiSpeciestmp or if you had a workable redirects tracking system here, one like this is an easy 'fix'.

Sorry on that. My bad. Probably trying to do too much in too little time. Actually, that's obvious, 9:54 UTC is 5:54 EDST and I'm definitely NOT an early riser... so that was at the end of an all nighter. (Which alas, I'm really too old to do often.)

In such an update mode, I'm generally just Hitting CTRL-A, CTRL-V and saving sans even a preview from the cut buffer, as the 'base version' is working, so I undoubtedly just overwrote this near name equivilent. I can't have followed a hyperlink, or the name would have been consistent and correct.

The rest of it is moot, as you all deleted the system without receiving the tools. Did you keep ubiquitous and useful tools like Template:lts and {{tlx}}? Well you missed that redirect. I'm pretty sure I didn't port the various cat templates and 'La' here yet, so the reasons for the systems and common naming die here due to 'Not Invented Here syndrome' or however you rationalize not keeping common names between sister projects and empowering editors of any stripe to contribute who are familiar with the others. And that really sums up the purpose of the templates inported here. They were the shell of commonality for the other goodies you all will now have to root out an transport on your own. Or write from scratch, or do without. Shrug. Not my loss.

I'm not sure about what you perceived wasn't working, but the preponderance of evidence is rather the other way. I admit there were a few isolated glitches, but given the tagging, if I hadn't updated a version, it would have been very simple and easy to follow the link back to the master copy and see if that was more recent. Can't do that easily without some such system.

Since the system has moved on to being moot here now, I'll just go on back to wikipedia and get back to getting stuff done. After I catch up some other matters, I hope to get this project back on track and posted in Meta. Sorry about the delayed response. But you all might try email for people with other wiki-homes. Do have a good New Year. // FrankB 23:54, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Redirects again

Remember the rule of thumb: NO REDIRECTS in the main namespace. --Connel MacKenzie 21:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh darn... how do you folks ever get anything done? Drop me a link the guideline, would you. I seem to stumble over needed words often enough! Happy New Year, btw. // FrankB 21:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Redirections#Redirecting different word forms as well as at least a dozen other places. --Connel MacKenzie 21:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

• Whatever you're moving and doing, work [space-and-a-half into it too. Cheers! // FrankB 21:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)