Template talk:quote-av

Source

Adapted from w:Template:cite video in accordance with WT:QUOTE. -- Visviva 04:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Clarification required

Can there be some clarification as to the meanings of the different attributes? Like, what is the difference between “source” and “url”, “time” and “at”, etc.? 〜britannic124 (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

The template documentation has been updated. Smuconlaw (talk) 16:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

cite-video

@Smuconlaw I noticed this template is missing, and found a few cases where it might be useful. Do you think it should be created? – Jberkel 18:45, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Sure, sounds like a good idea. Will get to it presently. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

{{cite-song}} might be useful, too. – Jberkel 23:54, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Oops, looks like I forgot about these. — SGconlaw (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:27, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

dialogues

I think it would be useful if the template could be used to quote a full dialogue, at present there's only one parameter for |actor= and |role=. – Jberkel 18:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Could you give an example of the suggested output? — SGconlaw (talk) 19:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

The easiest to read would be each line of the dialogue on a new line:

role A (actor A): first line

role B (actor B): second line

role A (actor a): third line

– Jberkel 10:35, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Jberkel: gee, not sure whether it's worth adding extra parameters for this. Why not just manually specify this in the |passage= parameter (i.e., "|passage=role A (actor A): first line / role B (actor B): second line")? Or are you just suggesting additional parameters like |actor2= and |role2= to specify the names of the actors? — SGconlaw (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

I was thinking about additional parameters but you're right, it would make the template overly complex. I'll add your suggestion to the template documentation. – Jberkel 11:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: another thing: |url= is currently documented as “The URL or web address of the video recording“. How would I link to scripts or other pages containing the quote? (Wikiquote, IMDB, etc.). – Jberkel 11:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Do you mean you want to be able to provide one URL to link to the video recording, and another URL for the script? — SGconlaw (talk) 12:50, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, to some textual representation of the video / quote. – Jberkel 14:17, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

quote-radio?

@Sgconlaw, Jberkel Under cod there's the following:

#* {{quote-video<!-- radio -->|date=1968-03-17|writer={{w|Kenneth Horne}}|title=Bona Rags|series={{w|Round the Horne}}|season=4|actor={{w|Hugh Paddick}} and {{w|Kenneth Williams}}|role={{w|Julian and Sandy}}|passage=Sandy: Right, right, well I'll just open the wardrobe.  Oh, here, look—his wardrobe. Ha!<br />Julian: Ha! Oh what a naff lot!<br />Sandy: It is a bit '''cod''' isn't it.}}

Whoever wrote this found the use of {{quote-video}} unsatisfying. I wonder, should we either (a) create {{quote-radio}}, (b) rename {{quote-video}} to {{quote-broadcast}}? Benwing2 (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

See also bona, with another example:

#* {{quote-video<!-- radio -->|year=1966|writer={{w|Kenneth Horne}}|title=Bona Tattoos|series={{w|Round the Horne}}|season=2|actor={{w|Hugh Paddick}} and {{w|Kenneth Williams}}|role={{w|Julian and Sandy}}|passage=SANDY: Oh, get him! The vanity of the man. Well, p'raps not Nelson then. How about reproductions of great masterpieces?<br />JULIAN: A '''bona''' idea. Now, let me see...}}

Benwing2 (talk) 17:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Maybe {{quote-media}}? I notice the corresponding Wikipedia template is {{cite AV media}}. Benwing2 (talk) 17:16, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

A third example under dolly. Benwing2 (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I was just going to suggest something like that, though maybe {{quote-AV-media}} would be a better name because "media" includes books, serials and the Internet. We might also consider combining {{quote-song}} and {{quote-video}} with that template (unless it's too much bother). I'm not particularly in favour of proliferating the number of citation and quotation templates for every conceivable type of media that exists. It should only be necessary to create a template with a new name if it needs to have parameters that are very different from the standard ones. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Another possibility is {{quote-recording}}. I'm not super keen on {{quote-AV-media}} because it's a bit awkward to type. If you do the work to combine {{quote-song}} and {{quote-video}} and/or specify what changes need to be made to map {{quote-song}} to {{quote-recording}} (or whatever), I can certainly run a bot to make the changes. Benwing2 (talk) 17:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Another possibility is {{quote-av}}, which is nice and short. Benwing2 (talk) 17:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

{{quote-av}} would definitely be more flexible/extensible. The Wikipedia version has podcast and makes a distinction between "motion picture" and "television production" so we could have more fine-grained media types. I'm just worried it will be one of those catchall templates with too many confusing parameters. – Jberkel 18:40, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't mind the name {{quote-av}}. Yes, if {{quote-song}} and {{quote-video}} are too different it may not be worth trying to combine them. I don't think radio programmes are likely to be very different from TV programmes or films though, at least judging from the above examples. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:46, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Songs are a bit different because they specifically combine music with lyrics, but radio/video programs and podcasts all seem very similar. Benwing2 (talk) 18:50, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

A fourth example: -ette. Benwing2 (talk) 18:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Please specify the language

This template and others now complain about unspecified language when unnamed/positional parameter 1 is empty. Presumably this could be fixed on the documentation page(s) without changing existing instances in entries by the judicious use of 'noinclude' and 'includeonly' tags… but I don't have time to do that right now. - dcljr (talk) 15:43, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

@Dcljr:  Done. Thanks for the reminder; I've been meaning to do that for a while. — SGconlaw (talk) 22:05, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Why does the name of an actor appear ahead of the name of the writer?

Of what linguistic interest is the name of the actor, unless the passage is known to have been adlibbed? For plays, we don't give any acknowledgment of the actor. Is Wiktionary caught up in the culture of celebrity? WP does research to find the names of writers for almost every popular film, TV show, and song, so it is easy to find the information, which can usually be confirmed, if necessary. DCDuring (talk) 17:38, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Not directly of linguistic interest, but people usually remember actors, not the name of their roles, so it's useful information to include. And you can't really compare a play with a film, a play has many different 'instances' and actors, a film usually just one actor for each role. – Jberkel 18:25, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Do you think people look up words by the name of the actor who mouthed them? If a single writer uses a word in 3 screenplays and has a different actor mouth the words in each, would that be three independent cites? DCDuring (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Not necessarily for looking up by actor, but when I read a quote and it mentions the actor's name, and I have seen the film, I can put it into context and might even remember the line. And yes, if a word is used in different contexts I would use different cites. I don't mind swapping writer/actor/roles – it has the added benefit of grouping related information. – Jberkel 09:50, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

The memory of actor and even role names is even more ephemeral than that for writer names (Jean Arthur, Tallulah Bankhead, Polly Bergen?), so the effect is to magnify generational differences in the perception of an entry. It also introduces emotional connotations that cannot be as readily documented as written context. We always want to know who selected a given word and when. Actors rarely are permitted to do so without the consent of others. And (Did I say this already?) it unwarrantedly feeds celebrity culture. DCDuring (talk) 15:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

I see DCDuring's point though. I'd have no objection swapping the positions of the actor/role and writer(s) in the template. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Please do. DCDuring (talk) 06:38, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but I must point out that this is a particularly silly discussion. DCD, you don't have to keep restating your opinions (with more and more tenuous arguments) when your fellow discussants have already said they don't mind switching the order around. - dcljr (talk) 16:36, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I came here to make exactly the same point, after seeing such a curiosity as miscredited attribution. In fact whenever I've cited such works, typically without a template, I will put the writer immediately following the year, just as with an author. The character goes on the line of the quotation itself, and I suppose the actor could as well.

• 2003 July 13, Ron Weiner, “Spanish Fry”, Futurama, FOX Television Network:

  Lrrr (Maurice LaMarche): You're going to kill this innocent Giganto?

DAVilla 02:48, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I like this format. – Jberkel 10:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

OK, let me look at this later. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@DAVilla, Dcljr, Jberkel:  Done. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

👍 In Special:Diff/54336946/60715775, why does George Lucas get listed after Han Solo? – Jberkel 17:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jberkel: because |people= was used to specify Lucas's name. That is a synonym of |actor=. I'm not very sure who added |people= to the template; it's not mentioned in the documentation and I think it should be deprecated as it's not very clear who it's supposed to refer to. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:04, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Meaning of series parameter?

The series parameter is listed in the docs as a "commonly used parameter", but it's not described in the table at Template:quote-av#Parameters. Is it deprecated? It does seem to do something (if a value is provided, then it's rendered in parentheses after the title). e.g.

2020, “EPISODE”, in TITLE (SERIES), season SEASON, episode NUMBER:

TEXT

Though I can't find it referenced by name in the source of the template, so I guess there's some indirection going on. Colin M (talk) 14:57, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Colim M: it looks like a typo in the documentation; the |series= parameter isn't used by the template. I've removed it. — SGconlaw (talk) 15:01, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The parameter *does* affect the rendered output though, as shown above. And if I replace 'series' with a nonce parameter name, it no longer shows up, e.g.:

2020, “EPISODE”, in TITLE (SERIES), season SEASON, episode NUMBER:

TEXT

Also, FWIW, there appear to be a number of pages that are currently using the series param with this template. (That search yields 129 results, but that's an overestimate because it includes some false positives where there's a quote-av template, and a series param used in a different template on the same page.) I suppose they should be cleaned up if the param is removed. Colin M (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Colin M: this is because all the quotation templates use a common back-end, and |series= is a parameter in that back-end. Even if a particular template does not use a certain parameter, if it exists in the back-end the template will display it. Please help to remove uses of the incorrect parameter when you find them. — SGconlaw (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Unscripted material

A documentary has no script, but still requires some attribution, how should this be specified? There's no parameter for director. – Jberkel 16:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jberkel:  Done. OK, I've added |director= and |directors=. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: thanks, doesn't seem to get displayed though? see Special:Diff/60347651/60715747. – Jberkel 17:50, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

@Jberkel: whoops, forgot that |coauthors= only works if |author= is also used. OK, it's working now. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

placing role inside what is technically the passage parameter

@Sgconlaw: See 嚟緊頭, where the template looks awful, apparently requesting a translation for the role. It seems to be because of this change. —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:31, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

If the quoted passage is indicated using the |passage= parameter as was intended, this eliminates the issue. As to moving the |role= parameter into |passage=, see the discussion entitled “Why does the name of an actor appear ahead of the name of the writer?”. — SGconlaw (talk) 05:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Erutuon: I edited "嚟緊頭" to put the quoted passage within the |passage= parameter, but @RcAlex36 reverted the edit because "the font looks funny". Any idea why putting the text enclosed by {{zh-x}} within {{quote-av}} causes the fonts to change? — SGconlaw (talk) 07:14, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw: It's because the |passage= parameter has class="Hani" applied to it, so the transliteration and translation in {{zh-x}} is displaying with fonts appropriate to Han characters. An additional problem is that |passage= seems to expect a single paragraph because it uses a span tag, whereas {{zh-x}} displays as multiple paragraphs. I would suggest merely adding a parameter to remove language tagging, because it should fix the font issue, but I'm not sure what to do about the second problem. — Eru·tuon 09:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I wonder why |passage= is set to “Hani”? Seems like this should be turned off by default and only turned on using a parameter if specifically required. Maybe try this first and see how it looks? (Also pinging @Benwing2 – sorry, I think it was actually you who worked on the quotation module, not Erutuon?) — SGconlaw (talk) 09:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw, Erutuon Putting the role and other things inside the passage parameter is IMO the wrong thing to do. |passage= is intended for the actual text of the quote, in the language of the quote, and nothing else, that's why it's tagged appropriately for the language (in this case with class="Hani"). Adding a parameter to disable language tagging is also the wrong thing to do; it's kludging around a problem rather than fixing the problem. {{zh-x}} should not go inside of |passage=; I think the solution adopted for Japanese, which has similar issues, is to leave |passage= blank and use the quote template only for formatting the header; then use {{zh-x}} afterwards, outside of the quote template. I would suggest reverting this change and redoing it in a way that doesn't change the |passage= parameter. If this requires changes on the back end, let me know what changes need to be implemented and I'll do them. Benwing2 (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

All right, let me think about where to relocate the |role= parameter to. — SGconlaw (talk) 13:43, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2, Erutuon, Suzukaze-c: I've relocated |actor=, |role=, and their associated parameters. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Sgconlaw Thanks! Looks good. Benwing2 (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Transcript URL?

Having a parameter for transcript URL, in addition to the video URL, may be advantageous for accessibility and searchability. 70.172.194.25 21:43, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

"medium" parameter

@Sgconlaw: The “medium” parameter is listed but does not work. J3133 (talk) 19:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

can the (Please provide the book title or journal name) error be suppressed?

I guess this error msg is sourced from the parent template {{quote}} or perhaps {{quote-text}}. It is very frustrating to deal with, because this template doesnt accept the journal= parameter, and "book title" is inappropriate as this template never refers to books. I always have to substitute something that isnt really meant to be there. In this diff, i just used (commercial) as the title, since commercials dont always have names and using the YouTube uploader's name for it wouldn't really be true to the source. (I doubt Typhoo would have called their commercial "Putting the T In Britain Advert" for example.) I would rather have this parameter made optional so that there will be no error message if it is left out. —Soap— 09:32, 27 October 2023 (UTC)